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Carnor Rex

Swarms

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Lemme preface this by saying I don't know swarms and only recently have I even tried to fly 4+ ships in formation. This was as an intro for a brand new player since I haven't had the guts to roll up with a swarm against more seasoned players. Yet. But now I find I LOVE flying swarmy lists!

So lets talk swarms. First where are they? Has traj sim suppression them all or is it just that tugs and bombers are under costed?

If you happen to fly swarm (any faction) whats your lists, your experiences and impressions so far in 2.0?

I personally feel like the tie fighter and particularly the named pilots are all over costed right now tbh.. but then maybe I just haven't seen them in good hands yet or something.  

Edited by Carnor Rex

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From what I’ve seen the general counter to traj-sim for a swarm player is to fly a swarm in which the synergy is ma8ntained loosely. This can be seen in captain jonus as his ability works at ranges 0-2 and isn’t completely necessary to be utilised by each shipment achieve turn in the bomber swarm.

Another example would be the Sloane swarms, positioning the Sloane shuttle in a somewhat middling board position in an ability that works at ranges 1-3 allows her to basically generate a synergy over a huge portion of the board and thus means the formation can be flown away from range one.

Swarms have generally seen great success in 2.0 specifically with the bombers, Sloane and Space-tugs, all of which don’t require formation flying. This also helps against aces as they can easily dodge the single conjoined arc of a formation and thus fanned arcs can be a more effective means of catching them.

My advice would be to go for a swarm that doesn’t need a formation but can fly as one in the right matchup (learn several deployments)

Something that can do both since their synergy is based of the enemy being damaged would be the Seyn, Del and Gideon Tie pilots, add in some named or generic buddies and that could be a workable group. Best of luck to you bud.

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Well the interesting thins is we will have factions that can't fill out an 8 ship list. Resistance and Republic are looking to be those factions. First Order as well although depending on the pricing of TIE/FOs they could be capped at 7 ships (assuming TIE/FOs start at 26-28 points).

Now myself personally believes a true swarm has a ship count that is above the wide median average (7 or 8 ships). However it appears mini-swarm lists (5-6 ships) tend to be one of the most popular list archetype for extended.

Still out of 7 factions 4 (maybe 5) of them are able to field a non-unique ship at 25 points or less. The ships with non-unique pilots at 25 points are

  • Z-95 (scum, rebel)
  • TIE Fighter (imperial, scum* pending expansion reveal)
  • Vulture Droid *pending expansion reveal

Some notes as I didn't include escape pods since they are unique same for Rebel Tie Fighter although it is possible to make a composite swarm list with say a cheap 12-24 point ship just to increase the ship count. 

However with 7 factions there is a new point range option and that is the 26-28 points. Right now only the 1st Order has that but I can see that point range for Republic and Resistance as well.

  • TIE/FO (1stOrder)
Edited by Marinealver

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@Marinealver I'd guess the V-19's for the Republic as well. Less certain than Vultures, definitely, but I wouldn't be surprised. Same statline as a 28-pt Tug; no ship ability but slightly better action bar otherwise, it'll come down to the slots (not to mention the generally accepted matter that Tugs are too cheap right now).

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31 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

@Marinealver I'd guess the V-19's for the Republic as well. Less certain than Vultures, definitely, but I wouldn't be surprised. Same statline as a 28-pt Tug; no ship ability but slightly better action bar otherwise, it'll come down to the slots (not to mention the generally accepted matter that Tugs are too cheap right now).

I don't think the V-19s will be <26 points. Maybe the cost of a A-wing or TIE-bomber in equivalence.

I don't see them being a swarm ship considering they only come in the squadron pack where the vulture droid is doubled in their squadron pack and has its own expansion making it very easy to get a lot of vulture droids.

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@Carnor Rex its funny you feel the named ties are overcosted as I have run a swarm of 6 named ties with marksman that I felt was very effective.

There are a lot of tie pilots who can have 3 die attacks if you use their pilot ability.

my list had Del meeko, mauler, gideon, scourge, seyn, and im sure ill get flak for running iden instead of howlrunner.

I think my opponents just kept getting overrun by disabling crits and iden prevented losing a tie on the initial joust allowing me to get to the range 1 tumble where i could use my manuver dial to block and get multiple ships pointed at a blocked ship.

 

Btw i’m not even an imperial player, I main scum, but borrowed a friend’s ties.

And scum might be the best swarm faction after the mining guild tie comes out, so much variety in ships that cost less than 30 points.

Edited by DakkaDakka12

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29 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I don't think the V-19s will be <26 points. Maybe the cost of a A-wing or TIE-bomber in equivalence.

I don't see them being a swarm ship considering they only come in the squadron pack where the vulture droid is doubled in their squadron pack and has its own expansion making it very easy to get a lot of vulture droids.

They'll be pretty dang close, was my point. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they landed anywhere from 25-30.

And I still think the only reason for their choice of which ships to release as separate packs alongside the squadrons was paint jobs 😜 Nobody's complaining that we have easier access to a full Vulture swarm, but if that's all you're looking for you might as well get a free Beetljuiceabulbasaur alongside them. But they know there are enough of us out there that will buy 8 of each paint job for Swarming. 😂

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My feeling that ties are over costed is partly due to 2 red 3 hull no shields.. and also comparing my 4 ship lists vs 5-6 tie swarms. Again I don't know swarms though. 

I wanna try lambda sloane, mini swarm plus.. something. Not sure if going named is better or generic to fit a better ace?

 

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42 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I don't think the V-19s will be <26 points. Maybe the cost of a A-wing or TIE-bomber in equivalence.

I don't see them being a swarm ship considering they only come in the squadron pack where the vulture droid is doubled in their squadron pack and has its own expansion making it very easy to get a lot of vulture droids.

3x squadron pack, 120 buck before taxes, 6x single packs, 120 bucks before taxes... Squad packs get the Delta 7 as well as the Torrents meaning with 3 packs you have a full squadron (honestly you probably will be able to get a full squadron going with just 2 Squad packs) of mini swarm , as you put it, + Ace. 3 or 5 hull (it could be either, the **** photos suck), 2 or 3 agil (same as the hull...) with that dial, missile slot, 2 red primary and no shields... It is highly unlikely to be more than 25.

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2 minutes ago, Carnor Rex said:

My feeling that ties are over costed is partly due to 2 red 3 hull no shields.. and also comparing my 4 ship lists vs 5-6 tie swarms. Again I don't know swarms though. 

I wanna try lambda sloane, mini swarm plus.. something. Not sure if going named is better or generic to fit a better ace?

 

TIE/LNs are the baseline, if they're over costed than everything else needs to go up in cost...

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For the V-19 Torrent, having a dial about as bad as a B-Wing is a really interesting concept for a swarm ship.  I think it was a cool move from FFG to go down that route.

While the statline is the same as a Quadjumper, the Spacetug Tractor Array is such a major ship ability that there isn't going to be a reasonable comparison.  Going by 1e prices, however, the array is perhaps priced at 4 points in 2e, which would put a ship without it at around 28-4 = 24.

I think certainly a few points cheaper than a TIE Bomber, or maybe a few points more than a Z-95.  Since these are down a hit-point compared to a TIE Bomber, that'd be 28-5 (hull upgrade) = 23.  The actions are about equivalent to a Bomber (both have a linked BR), but the dial is a lot worse.  Upgrade bar is almost surely not as extensive as a Bomber, and there isn't a ship ability.  The Bomber is also probably a little under-priced, so it's worth keeping that in mind.

Comparing to a Z-95, you'd add 5 points for a hull upgrade, but downgrade two shields to hull, which seems like that's about 1 point worth of difference, so 23+5-2 = 26.  The Torrent has better actions, but a far worse dial than a Z-95, so maybe even seeing it go down a point would be possible.

I can totally see the Torrent being an 8-per-list ship.

//

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Well the interesting thins is we will have factions that can't fill out an 8 ship list. Resistance and Republic are looking to be those factions.

I don't see First Order as getting 8 TIEs.  I don't know if they'll go up to 23+8 = 31 (an Academy Pilot with Shield Upgrade), but I could easily see them being 28 points.  28 would be the lowest number where 7 in a list is possible.  With 7 dials in the FO conversion kit, that kind of makes sense to me.

Edited by theBitterFig

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27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

For the V-19 Torrent, having a dial about as bad as a B-Wing is a really interesting concept for a swarm ship.  I think it was a cool move from FFG to go down that route.

While the statline is the same as a Quadjumper, the Spacetug Tractor Array is such a major ship ability that there isn't going to be a reasonable comparison.  Going by 1e prices, however, the array is perhaps priced at 4 points in 2e, which would put a ship without it at around 28-4 = 24.

I think certainly a few points cheaper than a TIE Bomber, or maybe a few points more than a Z-95.  Since these are down a hit-point compared to a TIE Bomber, that'd be 28-5 (hull upgrade) = 23.  The actions are about equivalent to a Bomber (both have a linked BR), but the dial is a lot worse.  Upgrade bar is almost surely not as extensive as a Bomber, and there isn't a ship ability.  The Bomber is also probably a little under-priced, so it's worth keeping that in mind.

Comparing to a Z-95, you'd add 5 points for a hull upgrade, but downgrade two shields to hull, which seems like that's about 1 point worth of difference, so 23+5-2 = 26.  The Torrent has better actions, but a far worse dial than a Z-95, so maybe even seeing it go down a point would be possible.

I can totally see the Torrent being an 8-per-list ship.

//

I don't see First Order as getting 8 TIEs.  I don't know if they'll go up to 23+8 = 31 (an Academy Pilot with Shield Upgrade), but I could easily see them being 28 points.  28 would be the lowest number where 7 in a list is possible.  With 7 dials in the FO conversion kit, that kind of makes sense to me.

1) B-wing

2) bad dial 

pick one. 

 

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1 hour ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

@Carnor Rex its funny you feel the named ties are overcosted as I have run a swarm of 6 named ties with marksman that I felt was very effective.

There are a lot of tie pilots who can have 3 die attacks if you use their pilot ability.

my list had Del meeko, mauler, gideon, scourge, seyn, and im sure ill get flak for running iden instead of howlrunner.

I think my opponents just kept getting overrun by disabling crits and iden prevented losing a tie on the initial joust allowing me to get to the range 1 tumble where i could use my manuver dial to block and get multiple ships pointed at a blocked ship.

Ya I like your concept . My impression was howlrunner needs iden to be worth her points so I agree with your  choice there. After making those initial observations I opted for academys with sloan as a pseudo howlrunner. The combo of sloane and swarm didn't disappoint, it's simply fantastic. I guess I'm just wanting too much from these lists. Maybe I'll try pure ties and go with higher named pilots. 

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Just here to say that traj sim isn't doing **** to swarms because the only traj sim ship we seem to run into with ANY regularity is redline

And also, in the pre-anything meta, ive had absolutel ZERO issue soloing half of swarms with a single moldy crow

Two dice still kinda suck, bleeding mov still really sucks, initiative is MAASIVE advantage, and flying tons of ships is hard 

Gonna need more effects like tugs, fel wrath, and/or mux to blunt the ridiculous advantage of shooting first/moving last. More debuffs in general would be swanky 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

3x squadron pack, 120 buck before taxes, 6x single packs, 120 bucks before taxes... Squad packs get the Delta 7 as well as the Torrents meaning with 3 packs you have a full squadron (honestly you probably will be able to get a full squadron going with just 2 Squad packs) of mini swarm , as you put it, + Ace. 3 or 5 hull (it could be either, the **** photos suck), 2 or 3 agil (same as the hull...) with that dial, missile slot, 2 red primary and no shields... It is highly unlikely to be more than 25.

Yeah I can't put much faith in the picture. It looks like 5 hull so I guess Quadjumper stats in similarity. I mean if it is the faction swarm ship. second edition went with the heavy scyk so maybe that is the starting point but I doubt it will be as affordable as a TIE-ln or Z-95.

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

TIE/LNs are the baseline, if they're over costed than everything else needs to go up in cost...

You also need to take in consideration that TIE-ln give you a lot for just 23 points. You have 3 agility one of the highest, with a pretty good dial with 1 hard turns. Barrel roll as well. Sure only 3 hit points but you don't have to worry about shield penetrating direct hits like a Z-95 (granted still rare in extended). The Z-95 dial is not as nimble and the extra hit point doesn't last long with only 2 agility. 

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

For the V-19 Torrent, having a dial about as bad as a B-Wing is a really interesting concept for a swarm ship.  I think it was a cool move from FFG to go down that route.

While the statline is the same as a Quadjumper, the Spacetug Tractor Array is such a major ship ability that there isn't going to be a reasonable comparison.  Going by 1e prices, however, the array is perhaps priced at 4 points in 2e, which would put a ship without it at around 28-4 = 24.

I think certainly a few points cheaper than a TIE Bomber, or maybe a few points more than a Z-95.  Since these are down a hit-point compared to a TIE Bomber, that'd be 28-5 (hull upgrade) = 23.  The actions are about equivalent to a Bomber (both have a linked BR), but the dial is a lot worse.  Upgrade bar is almost surely not as extensive as a Bomber, and there isn't a ship ability.  The Bomber is also probably a little under-priced, so it's worth keeping that in mind.

Comparing to a Z-95, you'd add 5 points for a hull upgrade, but downgrade two shields to hull, which seems like that's about 1 point worth of difference, so 23+5-2 = 26.  The Torrent has better actions, but a far worse dial than a Z-95, so maybe even seeing it go down a point would be possible.

I can totally see the Torrent being an 8-per-list ship.

//

I don't see First Order as getting 8 TIEs.  I don't know if they'll go up to 23+8 = 31 (an Academy Pilot with Shield Upgrade), but I could easily see them being 28 points.  28 would be the lowest number where 7 in a list is possible.  With 7 dials in the FO conversion kit, that kind of makes sense to me.

Good point on the first order. The TIE/FO will likely not fit the <25 category since in 1st edition you could only field a max of 6 of them. That being said I think they could come up to a 26-28 point start (making a 7 ship maximum). That is enough for a swarm list. If the V-19 is supposed to be a swarm ship that might be the target. So maybe the V-19 is closer to the TIE/FO in pricing then the Z-95.

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I've been watching this. To be honest, I have not had a lot of luck with swarms. i've been having trouble with them getting too bunched up and getting in each others way. I also have a bad habit of forgetting about their special abilities (paying the points for it and not getting the benefit of it because idiot me loses track). Wondering if gordes ofplain janes with only one or two named guys would work, or maybe going with smaller groups of guys who can take more hits.....

 

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Ties are really underrated filler ships, in most cases you could drop 1 kitted out ship for 2 academy pilots who you can use for blocking, distracting, or if the enemy ignores them a tie in range 1 is still a threat.

@EVIL INC try running a few ties with a pair or trio of some other ship you use often, like a list with 3 interceptors or advanced and fill the rest of the list with ties. Mixed ship types are harder to fly large groups of, but the versatility you gain is sometimes worth it.

 

Im still waiting for the mining guild tie to release first thing I will try when they release is a list with

-escape shuttle w/ tactics officer

-2 mining ties

-2 quadjumpers

-2 HLC scyks

Effective? No idea, but it will be fun with the quads trying to get in arc, while the ties knife fight, while the scyks poke from range, and the shuttle tries to stay in range of whoever needs a 2nd action.

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Swarms also generally require you buy large amounts of one ship, then carry atound large amount of said ships to game nights and tournaments.

 

Not many people:

a) want to buy 5-8 units of just one ship

b) have the money to buy 5-8 units of just one ship

c) want to carry around 5+ ships and the associated dials and tokens when playing

d) have the patience to play a list that may only allow a handful of turns a game

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I've played a couple games with 7 ship empire back in 1.0. Fun, and very taxing. Equally because of the arduous planning phases after engagement as it was the sheer lack of overall rounds in general. (I tend to enjoy games withany rounds and lots of movement.)

I've also run a 7 ship Rebel list several times in 2.0, and it was the exact same experience to the former. Super fun, just long and taxing to play. 

My opinion:

if you think you can get really fast at your dials and that you can still make the mostly-correct posistioning choices - and if you feel like you are winning more games than you lose, then DO IT. 

I am currently not that player. And I also am a bit disappointed with the ability of no-shennanigans-2-dice primaries to bring in enough damage to solidify my victory in the mid-game on a consistent basis...even in 2.0. 

Which brings me to the "3-dice-primary-weapon-mini-swarm". 

4+ rebels who can consistently throw three or more dice may be barely more capable of pulling off more consistent victories when flown optimally. 

Then again, most swarms of any variety tend to lean more on naked dice variance than I'd like nowadays, so yeah. Swarms have a competitive place amongst the most seasoned vets that know how to capitalize on their strengths at just the right moment. 

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2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I've played a couple games with 7 ship empire back in 1.0. Fun, and very taxing. Equally because of the arduous planning phases after engagement as it was the sheer lack of overall rounds in general. (I tend to enjoy games withany rounds and lots of movement.)

I've also run a 7 ship Rebel list several times in 2.0, and it was the exact same experience to the former. Super fun, just long and taxing to play. 

My opinion:

if you think you can get really fast at your dials and that you can still make the mostly-correct posistioning choices - and if you feel like you are winning more games than you lose, then DO IT. 

I am currently not that player. And I also am a bit disappointed with the ability of no-shennanigans-2-dice primaries to bring in enough damage to solidify my victory in the mid-game on a consistent basis...even in 2.0. 

Which brings me to the "3-dice-primary-weapon-mini-swarm". 

4+ rebels who can consistently throw three or more dice may be barely more capable of pulling off more consistent victories when flown optimally. 

Then again, most swarms of any variety tend to lean more on naked dice variance than I'd like nowadays, so yeah. Swarms have a competitive place amongst the most seasoned vets that know how to capitalize on their strengths at just the right moment. 

"3-dice-primary-weapon-mini-swarm" - only real way to do this for Rebels is to combo Attack Shuttles and X-Wings. 4 Blue Squadron X-Wings plus Zeb or Sabine, Hera and Zeb with 2 Blue Squadron X-Wings. First one I have ran and won with and was fun, can't really do the other list cos who has 3 Attack Shuttles?

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