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Adzhe

Combat Pheromones Ruling

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Looking to solve a dispute, please see below example.

1. Call Sanctum
2. Sacrifice Combat Pheromones.
3. Reap with Grabber Jammer. Gain +1 Aember, Capture +1 Aember
4. Reap with John Smyth. Gain +1 Aember. Reap Ability: Ready non-Agent Mars creature: Ready Grabber Jammer.
5. Reap withGrabber Jammer. Gain +1 Aember, capture +1 Aember.
6. Play/use your Sanctum cards.

Combat Pheromones allows you to USE 2 other Mars cards.

Say you had 2 John Smyth's on the board. You could theoretically bounce between the 2 to reap 6 Aember.

Is this correct?

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On 11/23/2018 at 11:19 PM, Adzhe said:

Looking to solve a dispute, please see below example.

1. Call Sanctum
2. Sacrifice Combat Pheromones.
3. Reap with Grabber Jammer. Gain +1 Aember, Capture +1 Aember
4. Reap with John Smyth. Gain +1 Aember. Reap Ability: Ready non-Agent Mars creature: Ready Grabber Jammer.
5. Reap withGrabber Jammer. Gain +1 Aember, capture +1 Aember.
6. Play/use your Sanctum cards.

Combat Pheromones allows you to USE 2 other Mars cards.

Say you had 2 John Smyth's on the board. You could theoretically bounce between the 2 to reap 6 Aember.

Is this correct?

John Smyth allows you to ready a non-agent Mars creature. John Smyth has the agent and martian traits, so no, you could not bounce between them because they can't ready eachother. Was that what you were after? I'm not 100% sure I understand your question.

Edited by Palpster

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The question I suspect that is trying to be answered is "Is 'use' a single use or not?" 

Combat Pheromones lets you use two Mars cards.
In the example above there are three "uses" of the cards (Reap of Grabber Jammer, reap of John Smyth, reap of Grabber Jammer) and the question is whether or not it is legal to do that second reap of Grabber Jammer. 

I suspect that it is not, based on the fact that a use of a card is a reap, action, or fight...but it could be interpreted that this line of play only "uses" two Mars cards, it just happens to use one of them twice. 

I've already sent this to FFG for a clarification.

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6 minutes ago, blinkingline said:

but it could be interpreted that this line of play only "uses" two Mars cards, it just happens to use one of them twice. 

that is incredibly nitpicky, but sure, they probably have nothing but time at FFG :) I would say it falls under the same category as the Witch of the Wild hubbub.

During each turn in which Untamed is not your active house, you may play one untamed card.

if you had two witches, do you get to play 2? (the answer is yes, btw) because each card says one and you played it ... it's not "1" ... etc.

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If you have 2 John Smyth, use Combat Pheromones, you reap each once and stop because John Smyth doesn't apply to John Smyth.

If you have any other card(non agent) and John Smyth, you use both of them, John Smyth readies the other card and you use it a 3rd time -> 3 Embers

Note John Smyth is literally the only Agent trait in the game

Edit - I see what others are mentioning. Whether the 3rd use is legal. Fair question

Edited by Talamare

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3 minutes ago, Talamare said:

If you have any other card(non agent) and John Smyth, you use both of them, John Smyth readies the other card and you use it a 3rd time -> 3 Embers

i'm a bit confused, so let me know if i misunderstood. John Smyth's ability is to "ready a non-agent mars creature", so unless you are playing mars, you cannot use that first creature again

Edited by Poposhka

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2 minutes ago, Poposhka said:

i'm a bit confused, so let me know if i misunderstood. John Smyth's ability is to "ready a non-agent mars creature", so unless you are playing mars, you cannot use that first creature again

I took some extra consideration at the exact question, the additional mention about 2 John Smyths kinda of muddled the question. I think it's a fair question.

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Thanks. I see the mistake I made with John Smyth (being an agent card it couldn't ready itself) and how it's muddied the question.

 

It's about the 1 use of john Smyth and the 2 uses of grabber jammer.

So 3 total uses but only 2 cards being used.

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Just to make sure I’m understanding right, my own thoughts in italics:

1 - Declare house Sanctum

2 - Omni action on Combat Pheremones.

3 - Mars Card Use 1: reap with Grabber Jammer.

4 - Mars Card Use 2: reap with Jon Smyth. Reap ability readies Grabber Jammer.

Combat Pheremones is resolved.

5- Reap with Grabber Jammer not allowed as the active house is Sanctum and Combat Pheremones is resolved.

If Jon Smyth’s ability said ready and use I’d say you are right and could use Grabber Jammer again. Clever idea though!

 

 

Edited by TheSpitfired
Late night grammar errors

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1 hour ago, twinstarbmc said:

If this hasn't already been submitted via the rules form, please do. I can see this being big.

Wait a second...yeah I think you’re right.

59 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'd say you can use Grabber twice. You're still only using 2 cards. You're using one of them multiple times.

That’s exactly what I started thinking while driving home from work.

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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

I'd say you can use Grabber twice. You're still only using 2 cards. You're using one of them multiple times.

As noted, exhausting the card is what uses it, and you only get 2, not 3.

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Just to add a nit picky interpretation.

The structure of the sentence on Combat Pheromones has "2" as an adjective and not an adverb. This means you can use "2 cards" and not that you get "2 uses". The easiest way to convert it to an adverb would be:

"You may use a mars card twice this turn. Can be a different card each time".

The rulings in the FAQ in the rule book seem to indicate you need to interpret the rules as literally as possible, so I have no reason to believe this ruling would be any different. 

Edited by Revert
Fixed bad Example

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2 hours ago, Revert said:

Just to add a nit picky interpretation.

The structure of the sentence on Combat Pheromones has "2" as an adjective and not an adverb. This means you can use "2 cards" and not that you get "2 uses". The easiest way to convert it to an adverb would be:

"You may use a mars card twice this turn".

The rulings in the FAQ in the rule book seem to indicate you need to interpret the rules as literally as possible, so I have no reason to believe this ruling would be any different. 

 

Maybe it will help others understand if I using the exact same phrasing, but outside of the context of this game. 

Combat Pheromones: You may use up to 2 other Mars cards this turn.

Different Context: When using a character capable of dual wielding, you may use up to 2 weapons. 

 

The 2 clearly applies to the number of weapons (Mars cards), and not the number of uses. The person who originally wrote the card might have intended for it to apply to the number of uses, but the ruling on Biomatrix Backup shows that Keyforge prefers to play the game based off of what is written, and not what is intended. 

Edited by Revert

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Offhand, I would go with two uses total, so the extra ready wouldn't work. 

That being said; I am already seeing a hodge podge of Litteral ruling here, rules as intended there.

The rules are consistent 99% of the time, except when they aren't. 

 - There are several cards from several houses that say "use a (non-active house) card this turn." I suppose they are all either "use one card as many times as you can" or "use a card once."

 

... Upon looking, I see you could use combat pheremones to play cards from your hand rather than use cards on the table. I think it could target Artifacts as well.

 

Edit: Also, other cards say for remainder of turn. implying that there is a limited number of uses for others.

Edited by ornithologist

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1 minute ago, ornithologist said:

... Upon looking, I see you could use combat pheremones to play cards from your hand rather than use cards on the table. I think it could target Artifacts as well.

Playing a card and using a card are two distinct things, so you could not use Combat Pheromones to play cards from your hand, only use cards already in play. You're correct about Artifacts, though, you can use CP to use them.

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1 minute ago, ornithologist said:

... Upon looking, I see you could use combat pheremones to play cards from your hand rather than use cards on the table. I think it could target Artifacts as well.

Artifacts YES, as long as they are mars and are controlled by you.

Quote

Players can only use cards they control, unless a card ability specifically states otherwise.

Play NO, playing is a distinct action from use.

 

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Oh boy...

I could see it going either way. Because the actions are described as "using creatures" by the rulebook (page 6-7). And Combat Pheromones says you may use up to 2 Mars this turn. It's not clear if that use means you get an action (fight, reap) or if you are allowed to really USE freely this Mars card on your non-Mars turn.

Wainting for them to give an official ruling on that.

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28 minutes ago, Mushra93 said:

Oh boy...

I could see it going either way. Because the actions are described as "using creatures" by the rulebook (page 6-7). And Combat Pheromones says you may use up to 2 Mars this turn. It's not clear if that use means you get an action (fight, reap) or if you are allowed to really USE freely this Mars card on your non-Mars turn.

Wainting for them to give an official ruling on that.

Not sure I understand what you're getting at, so feel free to correct me, but using a card means:

- creature: Fight or Reap or Action/Omni or Unstun

- artifact: Action/Omni

Edited by Poposhka

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