Jump to content
Miggor123

Gabos Longarms + Elusive interaction.

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Ah, so there has been NO OFFICIAL RULING

It's only your own INTERPRETATION of the rules

Now, your interpretation might be correct, mine might be wrong

But don't try to sell me that your word is law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it's just the rules. The rules are pretty specific here, no need for interpretation. 

This same thing happened when Destiny launched. People were arguing that the "Golden Rule" meant that reminder text contradicted the actual rules in the BRB, so they amended the BRB. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

actually let me revise this.

Quote

(rules v.1.1 p.10)

ELUSIVE

The first time a creature with the elusive keyword is attacked each turn, it is dealt no damage and deals no damage to the attacker in the fight.

Elusive only stops damage that would be dealt by each creature’s power; damage dealt by keywords or other abilities still applies.

 

 

Quote

Choose a creature. Gabos Longarms deals damage to that creature rather than the one it is fighting.

yes, IMO, longarms should deal damage in a fight vs. elusive (primary) target because

1. the rules state that "[the target of the attack] is dealt no damage and deals no damage to the attacker"

2. Gabos' ability doesn't say "... damage that would be dealt to the target ... ".

Edited by Poposhka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folks, Elusive does not say that the attacking creature deals no damage. It says the attacked creature receives no damage. There is a difference. With our long-armed friend Gabby, the attacked creature isn't the one taking the damage. It's going to someone else. Gabby will take no damage from the Elusive one, and will still get to poke That Thing Over There.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"the first time a creature with the elusive keyword is attacked each turn, it is dealt no damage and deals no damage to the attacker in the fight."  Where does it say that Gabos deals no damage? It only says your elusive creature doesn't take any, which is not the same thing, especially not if the damage is redirected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Poposhka said:

My final thought on this is:

Gabos' ability isn't clear, sure, but doesn't explicitly say that he deals "direct damage" (e.g. Deal X damage to ...) , instead it seems to stipulate the fight damage is dealt elsewhere. 

saying the other creature "should take damage because gabos' ability is a damage dealer, such as Firespitter's before fight, for example" IMO is unreasonable, because the other argument is "should not take damage because gabos' damage output is zero" is much more logical. again: IMO

Furthermore, the fight still takes place there just isn't any damage dealt.

So:

  1. I declare i use gabos for a fight, targetting nexus (with elusive)
  2. I select Bad Penny as the target for gabos' ability
  3. fight is resolved,
    1. gabos would deal 0 damage to nexus, and therefore 0 to penny
    2. nexus deals 0 damage to gabos

Are you done driving yet?!? Read the rule book!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Talamare said:

First of all, let's 100% drop any references to Assault, they are irrelevant to this discussion.

Now my personal stance on this is that Elusive's timing starts essentially before the actual Power exchange, it can't be during the Power Exchange and it obviously can't be after.

So at it's core Elusive works as a Before a Fight. Now Gabby isn't doing unique damage, he is applying his Power to another creature. Elusive straight up states in the text for Nexus that no damage is dealt. Thus Gabby deals no damage to another creature.

He is doing damage equal to his power yes. But there’s two key issues you seem to be missing somehow. One isn’t that he’s not attacking the creature he’s dealing damage to and thus that’s creature gains no benefit from elusive as elusive doesn’t lower an attackers damage it merely makes the creatures being attacked not receive damage given Gabbys ability applies explicitly to a creature he ISNT attacking I don’t see what issue you’re having here.

Second he damage is coming from an ability which is also explicitly something elusive doesn’t protect against.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TwitchyBait said:

He is doing damage equal to his power yes. But there’s two key issues you seem to be missing somehow. One isn’t that he’s not attacking the creature he’s dealing damage to and thus that’s creature gains no benefit from elusive as elusive doesn’t lower an attackers damage it merely makes the creatures being attacked not receive damage given Gabbys ability applies explicitly to a creature he ISNT attacking I don’t see what issue you’re having here.

Second he damage is coming from an ability which is also explicitly something elusive doesn’t protect against.

It's still technically doing "fight" damage, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will admit that I do kind of almost see the other side of this, but I will answer like I did on BGG:

Gabos Longarms is built to attack Elusive creatures.

Gabos attacks creature A (who has elusive).

His before fight ability triggers and he deals damage to a different target. Creature B.

Now his fight resolves with creature A, and elusive triggers. No damage is received by creature A and Gabos is dealt no damage in return.

If a second creature attacks Creature A, fight goes as normal as elusive has been triggered.

Even one step further, let’s say Creature B had elusive? Gabos is dealing it damage directly before the fight, not attacking it this turn. Elusive doesn’t trigger on creature B.

Because Elusive specifically applies to the creature that has it (IT is dealt no damage) I don’t think its ability can reduce the damage Gabos is dealing to other creatures as it is not the one being dealt damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Talamare said:

I think we should argue heavily in this thread and get it into the rulings sticky

It doesn’t even need to be in the ruling sticky though, elusive doesn’t stop damage from an ability and Gabos isn’t hurting anything it’s figbting anyways which is the only time elusive works even without the ability rule anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Page 9 under control: "If the word “before” is used in an ability (for example, “Before Reap:” or “Before Fight:”), that ability resolves before resolving the game effect of the reap or fight (but after the card exhausts, if exhausting is required to use the card)."

Everything Gabos Longarms does in his "Before Fight" text is outside the normal fighting rules. Elusive doesn't even come into it. It will be 5 direct damage to whatever. When the fight actually happens, Gabos deals zero damage (because his damage was "used up" in the before fight ability), and takes whatever damage is dealt by the target of the attack. He can attack (and be hurt by) a non-elusive creature while damaging a different elusive one. It says he "deals damage", not that he is now considered to be fighting that creature. He can fight one elusive creature to damage another, while taking no damage. If his power that was re-targeted in the before fight doesn't kill an elusive creature (which would be difficult, maybe if there were armor or power tokens involved), then that creature is STILL elusive (i.e. the next creature to fight it would still result in no damage being dealt), as the damage was before the fight.

Before fight abilities do not count as a fight. If it deals damage, it's direct damage. It would be the same as a firespitter putting 1 damage on all creatures, elusive or not.

If you are facing 2 elusives, you can attack one, to remove its elusive buff for the turn, while killing another, and then hopefully use another creature to finish off the first one. His downside is if there is a single creature on the board, gabos can't hit them. Arms too long lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where it is obvious that longarms  deals it's damage . It seems clear to me that longarms can if it chooses to do so redirect the damage to the nexus . If you look the choose a target aspect of the card has no restrictions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/30/2018 at 4:56 PM, saluk64007 said:

Page 9 under control: "If the word “before” is used in an ability (for example, “Before Reap:” or “Before Fight:”), that ability resolves before resolving the game effect of the reap or fight (but after the card exhausts, if exhausting is required to use the card)."

Everything Gabos Longarms does in his "Before Fight" text is outside the normal fighting rules. Elusive doesn't even come into it. It will be 5 direct damage to whatever. When the fight actually happens, Gabos deals zero damage (because his damage was "used up" in the before fight ability), and takes whatever damage is dealt by the target of the attack. He can attack (and be hurt by) a non-elusive creature while damaging a different elusive one. It says he "deals damage", not that he is now considered to be fighting that creature. He can fight one elusive creature to damage another, while taking no damage. If his power that was re-targeted in the before fight doesn't kill an elusive creature (which would be difficult, maybe if there were armor or power tokens involved), then that creature is STILL elusive (i.e. the next creature to fight it would still result in no damage being dealt), as the damage was before the fight.

Before fight abilities do not count as a fight. If it deals damage, it's direct damage. It would be the same as a firespitter putting 1 damage on all creatures, elusive or not.

If you are facing 2 elusives, you can attack one, to remove its elusive buff for the turn, while killing another, and then hopefully use another creature to finish off the first one. His downside is if there is a single creature on the board, gabos can't hit them. Arms too long lol.

I think this is a little different because he's actually got a replacement effect, as it says, "rather than the one it is fighting." The Before Fight: effect actually establishes new timing for dealing the damage, it only makes the choice before the fight, which is necessary for the effect to work the way it's expected to (as a Fight: ability with the same wording would be almost entirely useless). So, before fight, you pick the effect. Then during fight you check the normal items, such as whether Elusive or Skirmish are in effect on the fight, then you deal the damage you would have dealt to the creature you're fighting to the creature that you chose with the before fight effect. If you would have dealt no damage (such as when fighting an elusive creature) then no damage is dealt to the creature you chose with the effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This actually came up in an chainbound tournament with us and I was playing Gabos. Hoping someone makes a ruling on this. As it is currently, swinging Gabos into an elusive creature to hit someone else converts him into a nice little sniper. But the local league wanted to rule that his damage was canceled.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been thinking about the way it is worded and the best guess I have come up with (based on how I think it is ruled) is that his damage dealing is a before fight ability, which is also why elusive isn't triggered. I think they used the word instead to make sure people knew he was dealing his damage as a before fight ability and not again during the fight. As in I think if they hadn't worded it the way they did people would be arguing that he deals 5 damage before the fight AND 5 damage during the fight.

Just speculation. I'm pretty sure we are right about this one but if it takes something official to get others on board hope we get it soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I have been thinking about the way it is worded and the best guess I have come up with (based on how I think it is ruled) is that his damage dealing is a before fight ability, which is also why elusive isn't triggered. I think they used the word instead to make sure people knew he was dealing his damage as a before fight ability and not again during the fight. As in I think if they hadn't worded it the way they did people would be arguing that he deals 5 damage before the fight AND 5 damage during the fight.

Just speculation. I'm pretty sure we are right about this one but if it takes something official to get others on board hope we get it soon.

There are other creatures who modify the fight without a trigger at all, so it's a reasonable assumption that "before fight" was chosen for a reason.

We do have a twitter clarification on this:

From this we can conclude that "before fight" is indicating the timing, while the "rather than the one it is fighting" is removing the damage step of the dealing damage step of the fight. I guess this one missed the 1.2 faq.

We still can't be 100% sure as to the elusive state of the creature gabos is fighting.

Edited by saluk64007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/12/2019 at 6:45 PM, saluk64007 said:

There are other creatures who modify the fight without a trigger at all, so it's a reasonable assumption that "before fight" was chosen for a reason.

We do have a twitter clarification on this:

From this we can conclude that "before fight" is indicating the timing, while the "rather than the one it is fighting" is removing the damage step of the dealing damage step of the fight. I guess this one missed the 1.2 faq.

We still can't be 100% sure as to the elusive state of the creature gabos is fighting.

The twitter clarification just explains if Gabos snipes an elusive creature while attacking someone else and nobody is debating that ruling.  The confusion arises if Gabos is attacking the elusive creature and snipes another. Does the attacked creature's elusive "shield" the snipe target?

Also I just realized something based on the wording: can Gabos kill an opponent's only creature? "Do as much as you can..." ruling means you'd choose the solo creature, then Gabos deals damage to it "rather" than the solo creature he's fighting.  So it would resolve like it was a normal fight, BUT...

What if the solo creature has elusive?

The twitter ruling says Gabos ability gets around elusive but you are attacking the elusive creature--

1227c32e4c9eccafd355175bcf6174adbb35b9e9120c627d0251b44532e50bf2.jpg.6035043683a1aafef614ab5232c3a7eb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Twitter ruling says this: "Gabos' ability is just dealing the elusive creature damage, while it fights someone else."

The creature gabos is fighting is not important to this ruling, elusive or not.

The creature gabos is fighting, if it has elusive, will deal no damage, and is still considered to be attacked "the first time".

Choosing the same creature to target with the before fight, "rather than", seems legal to me, but is the part of this that is not clearly answered for me in that ruling. I don't think it falls into do as much as you can. Maybe as much as you can is nothing, because there is no other creature to target with the before fight. But considering the before fight says "choose a creature" rather than, say, "choose a creature gabos is not fighting", I think it's an uphill argument to say you can't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Crucible Cast #6 gave a ruling on this problem: Gabos attacks an elusive creature (with active elusive) -> another creature is chosen for the damage -> no damage is dealt as elusive cancels damage.

Additionally: Gabos attacks a non-elusive creature -> an elusive creature is chosen for the damage -> elusive does not prevent this damage as no elusive creature was attacked.

This was not quite how I was expecting it to go but I guess the logic is that Gabos is fighting the creature it originally attacks and only dealing the damage it would be dealing during fighting elsewhere instead of the attacked creature. Thus all fight modifications of the original creature are in effect and none of the new target for the damage are in effect.

Edited by Kalilei

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that's disappointing. Maybe they'll revise the terminology to "Before Fight (But not Really):" :P - Kidding.

Jokes aside, at least we got a ruling and I'm glad for that, I do think it nerfs Gabos a bit but there are still some good sneaky ways to use him. Not bad in the big picture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/28/2019 at 7:36 PM, TheSpitfired said:

Well that's disappointing. Maybe they'll revise the terminology to "Before Fight (But not Really):" :P - Kidding.

Jokes aside, at least we got a ruling and I'm glad for that, I do think it nerfs Gabos a bit but there are still some good sneaky ways to use him. Not bad in the big picture.

It does suck if your opponent has nothing but elusive creatures on the field. 😩

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...