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I think I wrapped my head around Biomatrix Backup ruling.

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The problem isn't really whether or not a given player controls / owns a specific card, it's whether they control an affect. Letting other players manage your triggers is just bad rules writing, and gives me a massive case of the feels-bads. They don't need to fix the FAQ, they need to address the "active player makes all the choices."

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8 minutes ago, Talamare said:

I have no doubt that this ruling will see a reversal, it's absolutely just silly

I think it more likely the card will get an errata at some point and just omit the you may business just straight up archiving it when destroyed. I guess they didn't want to do this on release of the game, which makes sense although I'm not sure the chosen solution is any better.

 

edit: also, that errata would make the card slightly worse, because now you don't really want to play it for aember in a situation where you have no creatures, but the opponent does. Pretty edge case, but still.

Edited by Palpster

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Just now, Palpster said:

I think it more likely the card will get an errata at some point and just omit the you may business just straight up archiving it when destroyed. I guess they didn't want to do this on release of the game, which makes sense although I'm not sure the chosen solution is any better.

It would require less work to establish "You" as the controlling player

You may will just be that the controlling player chooses.

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8 minutes ago, Talamare said:

It would require less work to establish "You" as the controlling player

You may will just be that the controlling player chooses.

Which will cause conflicts within the rules, which is an even bigger mess, better to adjust the card to fit in with the rules than bend the rules to accommodate a card (and unleash god knows how many other problems).

To be more specific, that would conflict with this (and before you go there, the golden rule doesn't apply, because it's not the card text that goes against the rules):

The player taking a turn is referred to as the active player. The active player is the only player that can perform actions or make decisions; a player does not make any decisions when it is not their turn.

Edited by Palpster

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32 minutes ago, Palpster said:

Which will cause conflicts within the rules, which is an even bigger mess, better to adjust the card to fit in with the rules than bend the rules to accommodate a card (and unleash god knows how many other problems).

To be more specific, that would conflict with this (and before you go there, the golden rule doesn't apply, because it's not the card text that goes against the rules):

The player taking a turn is referred to as the active player. The active player is the only player that can perform actions or make decisions; a player does not make any decisions when it is not their turn.

I really fail to see how that would cause a problem.  In fact its something that really needs clarified.  "Destroyed: Your opponent steals 2 amber"  Who steals two? Does it change with the active player?

I think it FFG also fails to realize how much downgrading a card stings.   Say what you will, but Biomatrix went from being an interesting somewhat useful card, to a card that just gives one amber.  Its the same reason we have a thread about sacrificial alter and no 'humans'.

That in itself is reason enough to rule the other way.

Edited by Dalek5

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Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m all for clarifying you/your when it comes to controller/owner/active player. 

However if you wish to have “you may” on Backup apply to it’s controller you are straight up going against the rule quoted earlier. You can’t have it both ways, either the controller makes decisions over their cards or the active player. Far easier to avoid that pit trap and remove you may from the card and just make it archive, which was likely it’s intention in the first place.

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10 minutes ago, Dalek5 said:

I really fail to see how that would cause a problem.  In fact its something that really needs clarified.  "Destroyed: Your opponent steals 2 amber"  Who steals two? Does it change with the active player?

I think it FFG also fails to realize how much downgrading a card stings.   Say what you will, but Biomatrix went from being an interesting somewhat useful card, to a card that just gives one amber.  Its the same reason we have a thread about sacrificial alter and no 'humans'.

That in itself is reason enough to rule the other way.

Not really.

Number of cards do board wipes/partial wipes.  Biomatrix Backup allows you to atleast keep the card somewhat close. part of the time.

 

Better than Curiosity.  

I have this deck Sage Ricardo Fleecelash[Dis/Logos/Untamed]  # ofLogos creatures 5, #of them scientist 4.  Untamed card Curiosity, Play: Destroy each Scientist creature.

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50 minutes ago, Palpster said:

Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m all for clarifying you/your when it comes to controller/owner/active player. 

However if you wish to have “you may” on Backup apply to it’s controller you are straight up going against the rule quoted earlier. You can’t have it both ways, either the controller makes decisions over their cards or the active player. Far easier to avoid that pit trap and remove you may from the card and just make it archive, which was likely it’s intention in the first place.

If the card read, "The controlling player may ...", the text would go against the rules.  Thus the card text would trump the game rules. Not sure why you do not think that counts as card text.

Either way, this is life now I guess.  Maybe its not the worst card, but its in my top ten for sure.  And unlike many other bad cards, a deck might have several copies of this.

Edited by Dalek5

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1 hour ago, Talamare said:

With this rule Bio Matrix is probably the worst card in the game, The only time I could see the opponent ever allowing you to Archive is if he is about to play Dysania

Well if your opponent has archived some of your better creatures into their archive it might be worth triggering this just to either completely get rid of their creature or temp them to draw their archive and thus give you your creatures back. But yeah, certainly worse than it was.

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2 hours ago, TwitchyBait said:

Well if your opponent has archived some of your better creatures into their archive it might be worth triggering this just to either completely get rid of their creature or temp them to draw their archive and thus give you your creatures back. But yeah, certainly worse than it was.

Ah, so even more advantages for your opponent?

Excellent, wtb a card that states "Give a key to your opponent"

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5 minutes ago, Talamare said:

Ah, so even more advantages for your opponent?

Excellent, wtb a card that states "Give a key to your opponent"

How is that more advantages for your opponent? It would work that way even if it was a must. The point was to show how the card could be useful still, ie normally your opponent would almost never choose to archive your card over destroying it because it's intrinsically better for them to not give you access to an extra card, however if you've taken their creatures into your archive as some cards can do this then becomes a problem for them where they will consider if they should suffer the effects of letting you have access to your now archived creature to potentially get their taken cards back when you choose to draw it or do they simply destroy it. This situation is a benefit for the owner of the upgrade, not a benefit for the opponent.

Edited by TwitchyBait

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On 11/23/2018 at 8:08 AM, twinstarbmc said:

For consistency, I will play it in casual as I would in tournaments - as ruled. I can see no good reason to play the same card two different ways from one circumstance to the next.

I phrased my question wrong and I apologize for that. I meant moving forward when the situation comes up and you are the active player, will you trigger B.B. and let your opponent archive the creature?

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2 hours ago, TheSpitfired said:

I phrased my question wrong and I apologize for that. I meant moving forward when the situation comes up and you are the active player, will you trigger B.B. and let your opponent archive the creature?

Ah, my bad. 

Yeah, probably not. Unless they've been stashing some of my better creatures in their archive. That's the only situation I'd be tempted to let them archive their own, making it a little more tempting to empty their archive.

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The card is useful, if you called mars and if you plan on suiciding a creature that turn.  If you leave it on the field your opponent will destroy it and it will not get archived.  If its not immediately used, it will not be.  Although it does give an amber.   I when my opponent was cleaver in getting around this with effects like 'both players return all creatures to you hand and such'

Edited by Dalek5

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I still don't think it's bad. Be aggressive on your turn with the creature that has Biomatrix Backup. Say, for instance, Pitlord?

Pitlord

I usually use Pitlord to rampage for a couple of turns with Dis. Killing him on your own turn while he has Biomatrix Backup...1) Lifts the house restriction, 2) Probably destroys a powerful/important opposing creature, 3) Recycles a card that generates 2 Aember, putting it into your archives.

So, even with this ruling, Biomatrix Backup is useful on cards you want to use to fight with.

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19 minutes ago, RobertK said:

I still don't think it's bad. Be aggressive on your turn with the creature that has Biomatrix Backup. Say, for instance, Pitlord?

Pitlord

I usually use Pitlord to rampage for a couple of turns with Dis. Killing him on your own turn while he has Biomatrix Backup...1) Lifts the house restriction, 2) Probably destroys a powerful/important opposing creature, 3) Recycles a card that generates 2 Aember, putting it into your archives.

So, even with this ruling, Biomatrix Backup is useful on cards you want to use to fight with.

How do you expect to put a Mars card on Pitlord if he's forcing you to call Dis?

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4 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

Easy: Open a deck with Pitlord and Biomatrix Backup as a maverick into Dis.

(1) Would a Mars-Maverick Pitlord still force you to call Dis, or would it force-call Mars instead?

(2) Can non-creature cards be Mavericks?

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23 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

****. I was hoping you had some secret uber tech I could use to make all my dreams come true. :D 

Master plan with it, place Biomatrix Backup underneath one turn, next turn call dis then play pitlord and activate master plan to place Biomatrix Backup on pitlord is one way though it takes a bit more setup 

Edited by TwitchyBait

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1 hour ago, twinstarbmc said:

(1) Would a Mars-Maverick Pitlord still force you to call Dis, or would it force-call Mars instead?

(2) Can non-creature cards be Mavericks?

1. I suspect it would still force Dis, but it’s possible the maverick generation is smart enough to change the wording to Mars.

2. I think so? But why let little technicalities like that get in the way of ridiculousness.

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