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10Ten

May forge a key at current cost?

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13 hours ago, 10Ten said:

Why do you say that? 

I've never experienced anything like  "non-interactivity" when it comes to FFG games.

If you need up tempo games,  I gots no problems pulling out Pit or Dutch Blitz and we can go all twitch skillz.

 

If you’re only making plays on your turn, you’re only playing half a game. Hopefully we won’t have to suffer through something analogous to action-stacking in Destiny. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Destiny is not all FFG games.....

And I find it odd that you would criticise action stacking but be ok with someone essentially getting to do the same thing here by forging two keys without allowing the other player to take their turn in between.

 

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31 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

One accelerates the speed of the game, the other prolongs it. 

Which FFG games can you interact with your opponent (or partner) during their turn?

I'm assuming you mean card games, because a lot of their boardgames have quite a bit of player interaction.  I'm not familiar with enough of their card game to agree or disagree.

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1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

One accelerates the speed of the game, the other prolongs it. 

Which FFG games can you interact with your opponent (or partner) during their turn?

Interaction on someone else's turn isn't a requirement of interaction in general.

I don't interact with my opponent in L5R on their turn but the game is highly interactive.

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Sorry but that just is not true.  Again I'll use L5R as an example here as it is very dynamic and strategically deep game and has almost no way for one player to interact (or more accurarely, interrupt) another player on their turn.

By removing the back and forth interaction, were there is the play and counter-play between to two opponents, you actually make the game less interactive.  That's what allowing multiple keys to be forged in a turn does.

The design of Keforge is inherently less interactive than say L5R.  In Keyforge, I can win by not playing any creatures.  I only have to generate aember and forge keys faster than my opponent.  While it is generally advantageous to have creatures in play to assist me in reaching this goal, it's not a requirement.  In don't have to kill my opponent's creature, or interact with their board state in any other way than to affect the aember totals and win the race of forging keys. 

In L5R this is not possible.  You have to engage in conflicts, which force interaction with your opponent, in order to pursue any of the 3 win conditions of that game.  Interaction is baked into the design.

Keyforge doesn't have that.  It actually has the potential for two llayers to sit down across from one another and never truely interact....... unless you consider this interaction:

Me: do stuff +6 Aember, Check

You:  do stuff +6 Aember, Check

Me: forge a key, do stuff, +6 Aember, Check

You: forge a key, do stuff +6 Aember, Check.

Me: forge a key, do stuff, +7 Aember, play card to forge 3rd key, I win.

That was neither dynamic, nor strategic, nor interactive, nor fun, but ultimately that is what the design of Keyforge allows for, in the worst possible version of itself.

By allowing multiple keys to be forged in the same turn you exacerbate this non-interactive race and I feel like that is bad for the game because it pushes it towards this negative extreme without offering anything positive in return.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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8 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Keyforge doesn't have that.  It still has the potential for two layers to sit down across from one another and never truely interact unless you consider this interaction:

Me: do stuff +6 Aember, Check

You:  do stuff +6 Aember, Check

Me: forge a key, do stuff, +6 Aember, Check

You: forge a key, do stuff +6 Aember, Check.

Me: forge a key, do stuff, +7 Aember, forge 3rd key, I win.

That was neither dynamic, nor strategic, nor interactive, nor fun, but ultimately that is what the design of Keyforge allows for, in the worst possible version of itself.

By allowing multiple keys to be forged in the same turn you exacerbate this non-interactive race and I feel like that is bad for the game because it pushes it towards this negative extreme without offering anything positive in return.

 

This is so absurdly abstracted that it doesn't make any sense. Besides, L5R can be in the same way:

-Me: pol conflict, break province

-you: mil conflict, break province

-me: mil conflict, break province

-you: pol conflict, break province

next round

you: mil conflict, break province

me: mil province, break province

you: pol conflict, break stronghold, you win.

This is just as absurd as what you said for Keyforge and both are probably never going to happen that way. (yes, I will admit that it is more likely to happen in Keyforge, but still extremely unlikely)

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9 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

If you’re only making plays on your turn, you’re only playing half a game. Hopefully we won’t have to suffer through something analogous to action-stacking in Destiny. 

Really?

 

Any other absurd stipulations?

 

Can only be a game if it uses no primary colors?

Only half a game if not played on the fifth Tuesday of the month?

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6 hours ago, Palpster said:

This is so absurdly abstracted that it doesn't make any sense. Besides, L5R can be in the same way:

-Me: pol conflict, break province

-you: mil conflict, break province

-me: mil conflict, break province

-you: pol conflict, break province

next round

you: mil conflict, break province

me: mil province, break province

you: pol conflict, break stronghold, you win.

This is just as absurd as what you said for Keyforge and both are probably never going to happen that way. (yes, I will admit that it is more likely to happen in Keyforge, but still extremely unlikely)

Refuting me by contradicting yourself isn't really going to sway me.

Could a game of L5R just be a race of province breaks? Sure but we both know games don't play out that way.  But if L5R had cards that just gained extreme amounts of honor when played or stole large amonts of honor from your opponent then you could have someone pursuing those paths to victory without having much, or any, interaction with their opponent.  

The good thing about L5R is that the design of the game, in large part, prevents this because it forces almost everything relevant to wining (no matter what win con you're pursing) to be done during the conflict phase, which is highly interactive.

Keyforge just simply isn't designed that way.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Keyforge is still a great game.  Again, what I take issue with is that allowing multiple keys to be forged in the same turn is a rule that pushes the game towards its worst version of itself.

The vast majority of Keyforge games will very much a back an forth affair, but, because the deck contents are random, there is a possibility for players to get decks that abuse the ability to forge multiple keys in a turn and make what is otherwise an enjoyable game become very close to a NPE.

Take my original example and throw out the first part of it and say that the game is a nice back and forth affair.  Both players are playing creatures, reaping, fighting, stealing, etc.  The game is back and forth except one player has Key Charge and the other does not.  So here we are in what is otherwise a great game and then one player just dumps his combo down, forges his second key that turn and wins out of nowhere, essentially spoiling the remainder of what was a highly interactive game up until that point.

Sure all games have to come to and end, but to have a game end like that is pretty disappointing, IMO. Especially because the manner in which it ends has little to do with player skill and more with one random decks getting its win con accelerator and there is nothing the other player can do to counter that......because their opportunity to do so was removed and completely out of their control.

So now you have people being forced to search for a deck that can counter this, or at the very least do it themselves just to be on par with the rest of the field.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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50 minutes ago, 10Ten said:

I have this condition called levelheadedness. (I woulda said common sense, but unfortunately that's turned into an oxymoron)

 

 

7 hours ago, 10Ten said:

Really?

 

Any other absurd stipulations?

 

Can only be a game if it uses no primary colors?

Only half a game if not played on the fifth Tuesday of the month?

Very levelheaded. Let's add irony and calm to your list of qualities. Shall we try for humility while we're at it?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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17 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

One accelerates the speed of the game, the other prolongs it. 

Which FFG games can you interact with your opponent (or partner) during their turn?

Rebellion, Legion, X-wing, Armada...it might be easier to name an FFG game without interactivity during an opponent’s turn. How about “Hey that’s my fish!”?

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5 hours ago, 10Ten said:

Luckily for us, Keyforge smothers your fears by using 3 factions

Sadly it has not.  Since my friend and I started playing the rules correctly to allow for multiple key forging on a single turn we had to set aside the decks that are capable of that because it has been largely as I feared.

When competitive play picks up, we'll bring them back, but, for now they are a bit of a buzzkill for eveything else that isn't able to do the same.

They serve as our gatekeeper decks to draw the line between casual and competitive 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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15 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Rebellion, Legion, X-wing, Armada...it might be easier to name an FFG game without interactivity during an opponent’s turn. How about “Hey that’s my fish!”?

I played X-Wing up until about wave 5. What have they done since then to allow you to interact with your opponent on their turn?

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32 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I played X-Wing up until about wave 5. What have they done since then to allow you to interact with your opponent on their turn?

Well, in version 1, some examples include: Luke lets you modify defense dice, Porkins lets the owner remove stress (which can be imposed by some opposition cards), 4-LOM can remove an opponent’s target lock.

In 2.0, Iden Versio can choose to prevent incoming damage to other TIE fighters.

 

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5 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Sadly it has not.  Since my friend and I started playing the rules correctly to allow for multiple key forging on a single turn we had to set aside the decks that are capable of that because it has been largely as I feared.

When competitive play picks up, we'll bring them back, but, for now they are a bit of a buzzkill for eveything else that isn't able to do the same.

They serve as our gatekeeper decks to draw the line between casual and competitive 

Having a deck that contains two of the aforementioned cards, both in one faction, and having placed over 200 games under my belt with it against a variety of players with their own decks, I would argue that the extra forge key never really gets off due to cards that punish you for having 6 or more aember stored.  I have consistantly run into shadows that rob all but 6, knights who capture, and even dis thieves who whittle below the necessary minimum 13 aember between 6, reaping, and playing a new turn. 

Now, I do not have 2 dust pixies, nor do I believe that it would be that much of an improvement to have to build the combo hand up to forge two at once with the specific 4/36 robbing handspace while trying to play out the game otherwise to get two in one turn.

 

So, if not just a dumb combo piece, what does this card archetype actually do?  It protects your pool from shadows thieves, knight captures, dis capture or thieving or discarding, or brognar capture or discarding of your aether.

 

The fears that this archetype changes the meta are considerably unfounded up to this point, but i will happily wait until i have 1111 matches under my belt to give you the +/- 3% on how many i was able to double forge with access to two of this effect in one faction.

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10 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I played X-Wing up until about wave 5. What have they done since then to allow you to interact with your opponent on their turn?

Juke lets you modify opponents evade dice, heck, wave 1 Wedge also kind of does that! Selfless/DTF/Biggs (2nd ed.) lets you pass around their hit results...there is a few things. However, due to X-Wing not having a rigid turn structure like KF, I don't think it is a strong comparison. FFG do seem to avoid that rigid turn structure in their minis games in general, though, so some of their designers are aware of the issues with having one player sit out for too long. Imo in KF the vast majority of turns (everything that doesn't involve Library Access, pretty much) is short enough that it doesn't matter and since the hand is completed at the end of your own turn, you can spend the time your opponent takes planning routes for how to utilize your hand. I think all of these factors contribute to me not even having considered this an issue until you brought it up.

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16 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

 

Very levelheaded. Let's add irony and calm to your list of qualities. Shall we try for humility while we're at it?

Yes.

I used your absurd stipulation, that you are now trying to foist off as opiact, (you know opinion as fact) added a touch or two of sarcasm to highlight the invalidity of your assertions.

Absurd:

adjective

  1. utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false: "an absurd explanation."

Sarcasm:

noun

  1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
  2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark:  "a review full of sarcasms."
16 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Sadly it has not.  Since my friend and I started playing the rules correctly to allow for multiple key forging on a single turn we had to set aside the decks that are capable of that because it has been largely as I feared.

When competitive play picks up, we'll bring them back, but, for now they are a bit of a buzzkill for everything else that isn't able to do the same.

They serve as our gatekeeper decks to draw the line between casual and competitive 

Wow I have a completely different result.

 

Perhaps you and your friend are trying to play Keyforge like M:tG?

One of my mates had this issue.  Kinda weird since he was the one who wanted to get into the game.  He watched the videos, read the rules, got a bunch of decks and played it just like M:tG

Edited by 10Ten

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You have moved on....

 

Yet you're still responding?

 

That another of your opiacts or a straight up oxymoron?

You sure are amusing to watch.  You appear to love confrontation, but can't handle a simple boop

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