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10Ten

May forge a key at current cost?

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Chota Hazri

Play: Lose 1 Amber. If you do, you may forge a key at current cost

 

 

What does this mean?

Does this mean I can forge a key outside of Step 1?

Does this mean I can forge a key with only say 2 amber?

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On 11/21/2018 at 3:11 PM, The Penguin UK said:

It means you can forge a key outside of step one at whatever the cost to forge is (usually 6, but this can be raised or lowered by card effects) - it's helpful to let you forge 2 a turn, or spend Amber mid turn before your opponent can stop you.

You cannot forge more than 1 key per turn.

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5 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

You cannot forge more than 1 key per turn.

Surely that's just during the first step of your turn, no?  Even if you have twelve Aember, you can only forge one key.  But if any ability lets you forge another one,  isn't that outside that restriction?

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No, because none of the cards that allow you to forge a key outside of the forge step say anything like "forge an additional"

You are still bound by the 1 key per turn rule unless a card specifically breaks that rule.

The only rule that these cards are breaking are the timing of when you can forge the key, not how many keys you can forge in a turn.

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10 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

You are still bound by the 1 key per turn rule unless a card specifically breaks that rule.

There is no such rule in the German translation of the rule book. 

There it explicitly says, that you can only forge one key during the forge a key step. 

I think, you might be wrong. 

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18 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

No, because none of the cards that allow you to forge a key outside of the forge step say anything like "forge an additional"

You are still bound by the 1 key per turn rule unless a card specifically breaks that rule.

The only rule that these cards are breaking are the timing of when you can forge the key, not how many keys you can forge in a turn.

Huh?

 

Um that is not what the rules say.

STEP 1: FORGE A KEY
If the active player has enough Æmber to forge a key during this step, they must do so. To forge a key, the active player spends Æmber from the Æmber pool on their identity card, returning it to the common supply. Then, that player flips any one of their key tokens over to its forged side, indicating that the key has been forged.

  • The default cost to forge a key is six Æmber. Some card abilities may increase or decrease this number.
  • No more than one key can be forged during this step each turn, even if the active player has enough Æmber to forge multiple keys.
Edited by 10Ten

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Interesting. Well it looks like they changed the wording on this from what I was originally given from a demo awhile back. Looks like I'm gonna have to get an updated rules sheet.

I stand corrected and concerned.  Its not going to be a big deal for the majority of decks out there but decks that can combo off a ton of aember and forge extra keys are going to create some moments that could feel like a NPE.

Ultimately I'd expect those kinds of decks to get chained into oblivion......which makes me wonder why allow it in the first place?

I guess on a positive note, at least 3 of my decks have significantly improved

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16 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Interesting. Well it looks like they changed the wording on this from what I was originally given from a demo awhile back. Looks like I'm gonna have to get an updated rules sheet.

I stand corrected and concerned.  Its not going to be a big deal for the majority of decks out there but decks that can combo off a ton of aember and forge extra keys are going to create some moments that could feel like a NPE.

Ultimately I'd expect those kinds of decks to get chained into oblivion......which makes me wonder why allow it in the first place?

I guess on a positive note, at least 3 of my decks have significantly improved

Because it’s rare you’ll get 12+ aember in a turn. The card wouldn’t be that useful if you could only forge one period per turn.

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Just now, TwitchyBait said:

Because it’s rare you’ll get 12+ aember in a turn. The card wouldn’t be that useful if you could only forge one period per turn.

Forging outside of the forge step is already strong.  

More practical applications will be starting a turn with enough aember to forge a key, then gaining enough to forge a second key that turn and get ahead in the key race. It's not that difficult to do.  I've had plenty of opportinities to do just that in the 30ish games I've played in the last week, but, obviously didn't because I was playing it wrong.

Had I double forged it would have ended some games more decisively, but, even playing it wrong g as just a way to circumvent steal/capture, I still found it useful.

Imo allowing the forging of multiple keys in a turn is potentially harmful to the overall experience of the games because it removes some amount of player interaction.

If there is just a flat 1 key per turn rule, even the biggest combo decks have to allow their opponent an opportunity to respond.  When you eliminate that opportunity you bolster decks with good combos and that is typically a feel bad moment for someone when a player whirlwind slams down their combo and the other person can only watch.

It's just going to fuel the "too much RNG" argument.

I think it has the potential to do more harm than good this way, but, whatever.  It is what it is and I'll play it accordingly now that I know. I just worry about turning people off to the game when what would have been an othewise close game turns into a rout because of this rule.

 

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30 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Forging outside of the forge step is already strong.  

More practical applications will be starting a turn with enough aember to forge a key, then gaining enough to forge a second key that turn and get ahead in the key race. It's not that difficult to do.  I've had plenty of opportinities to do just that in the 30ish games I've played in the last week, but, obviously didn't because I was playing it wrong.

Had I double forged it would have ended some games more decisively, but, even playing it wrong g as just a way to circumvent steal/capture, I still found it useful.

Imo allowing the forging of multiple keys in a turn is potentially harmful to the overall experience of the games because it removes some amount of player interaction.

If there is just a flat 1 key per turn rule, even the biggest combo decks have to allow their opponent an opportunity to respond.  When you eliminate that opportunity you bolster decks with good combos and that is typically a feel bad moment for someone when a player whirlwind slams down their combo and the other person can only watch.

It's just going to fuel the "too much RNG" argument.

I think it has the potential to do more harm than good this way, but, whatever.  It is what it is and I'll play it accordingly now that I know. I just worry about turning people off to the game when what would have been an othewise close game turns into a rout because of this rule.

 

I really don’t think it’s harmful, if anything it’s better because it allows someone to more easily come back when they’re falling behind as most often it’ll be used to simply forge one key you would have otherwise forged at the beggining of your next turn to avoid capture/steal/loss. Like I said it’s rare you’ll have enough aember to forge two keys in a single turn that you wouldn’t have otherwise forged at the beginning of your next turn anyways so more often than not it just helps prevent a foe from stopping you as often with steal/capture or a particular devistating Bait and switch. Similarly there aren’t many cards that let you forge out of turn and some of them even increase the cost to forge a key. It’s hardly devastating to balance that I’ve experienced thus far.

Edited by TwitchyBait

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46 minutes ago, TwitchyBait said:

I really don’t think it’s harmful, if anything it’s better because it allows someone to more easily come back when they’re falling behind as most often it’ll be used to simply forge one key you would have otherwise forged at the beggining of your next turn to avoid capture/steal/loss. Like I said it’s rare you’ll have enough aember to forge two keys in a single turn that you wouldn’t have otherwise forged at the beginning of your next turn anyways so more often than not it just helps prevent a foe from stopping you as often with steal/capture or a particular devistating Bait and switch. Similarly there aren’t many cards that let you forge out of turn and some of them even increase the cost to forge a key. It’s hardly devastating to balance that I’ve experienced thus far.

I think the comeback aspect is appealing, but the problem is that is can just as easily be done by someone that is already ahead.

I've had plenty of turns where I started with 6-7 aember, forged my key and then ended the turn with a check, while I was already ahead.

Sure they are not as frequent as those turns where I just wanted to forge before my opponent could b&s me, and I think that is a good enough of an effect on its own.  

If it was only a way to catch up if be fine with it.  That is can be played from someone while they are ahead is problematic for me.

Not enough for me to throw my hands up and quit. It's still an excellent game, either way,but, it is something that I question as potentially not being executed as cleanly as it could be and having room for abuse when other alternatives could be used without increasing the chance for that NPE moment that starts someone I'm their path of negativity.

I mean can you imagine if the game gets a ton of hype and in the first big event to be seen online it ends with a player just comboing out to win with two keys in a turn while the other person just sits in their hands and watches with no way to respond?  

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24 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I mean can you imagine if the game gets a ton of hype and in the first big event to be seen online it ends with a player just comboing out to win with two keys in a turn while the other person just sits in their hands and watches with no way to respond?  

The problem there really is with not being able to respond before forging a key. Whether this is a first or a second key doesn't matter all that much. I think forging outside of the normal step can be a good element to have, but should be a rare occurrence.

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Absolutely is should be rare, but, the cards that let you do this are, I'm pretty sure, uncommon and common.

Key Charge for Untamed is common and Untamed is pretty good at getting a lot of aember in one turn.....so having Key Charge at common makes any deck with Untamed a serious threat to just win a game from nowhere.

My opponent and I are going back and forth and I get the early edge on aember.  I forge my first key and then he forges his.  Then we go back and forth for aember again but I get the edge on him and end my turn at 7 aember. He doesn't have any steal or capture effects but managed to build his board and get to 8 aember himself so he can keep pace......

But in the next turn I forge my second key, call untamed, play witch, pixie, pixie and key charge (all commons) for the win.

If anything this rule makes decks without steal or capture far worse because anyone with a deck that can forge an extra key can just run away from the at any time.

I'm not against what I feel is likely the spirit of the rule: to catch someone up that is behind, but, it's not a rule that just does that.  It potentially accelerates the game at the expense of player interaction. That would be my main concern.

Again, just the timing of being able to forge a key outside the forge step is strong.  I could play that same combo and just do something else during a turn on between to help set up my board state so if I was behind I still forge my second key first but at least this way my opponent and I keep playing.  Which to me is what these games should be about.  Sitting across from someone and interacting with them by playing a game you both enjoy..........not playing head to head solitare

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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6 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Interesting. Well it looks like they changed the wording on this from what I was originally given from a demo awhile back. Looks like I'm gonna have to get an updated rules sheet.

I've got the original pdf of the rules from August and this rule is the same there.   Of course I don't know which document you were given awhile back so I'm not saying you're mistaken, but the rulebook since version 1.0 hasn't changed in this regard.  Perhaps you misread?

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I had a copy of a demo sheet of what I thought was given to the person who taught me the game.  My I derstanding was it was given to him with his along with the demo decks and he made me a copy.

Must have been home crafted? But it looked official.  Doesn't matter now.  At least i didn't have it come up and bite me in the rear at an important tourney

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I'm just looking at the cards I have that let you forge out of sequence...

  • Key Abduction (Mars) - Pull all Mars creatures back to owners hand, then forge a key for 9 + current cost - # of cards in hand.  Assuming you don't have any chains or effects that raise/lower what you pay, you're starting with a 15 Aember cost.  You could pull a bunch of Mars creatures back, but that means you've been playing a bunch of Mars creatures, and any smart opponent isn't going to let them just sit there waiting for you to make this move.
  • Key Charge (Untamed) - Probably the easiest to pull off, since all it requires is for you to have the current cost + 1. 
  • Epic Quest (Sanctum) - Pulls back all Knights when played, then can be sacrificed if you played 7 or more Sanctum cards that turn to forge a key for free.  So you're going to be slapping down Knights trying to have a bunch in play when you play Epic Quest, so you can play them as part of the 7 Sanctum cards.  Or you're working your Archive to be able to pull 7 Sanctum cards out.  Either way, it's going to take some work to do this, all while your opponent isn't just watching you in awe.

And that's it.  Out of seven decks, I have three cards -- all in different decks -- that let me forge out of sequence.  All but one require a good bit of setup to pull off, and the easiest still requires you to have at least 13 Aember at the start of your turn.

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52 minutes ago, DailyRich said:

I'm just looking at the cards I have that let you forge out of sequence...

  • Key Abduction (Mars) - Pull all Mars creatures back to owners hand, then forge a key for 9 + current cost - # of cards in hand.  Assuming you don't have any chains or effects that raise/lower what you pay, you're starting with a 15 Aember cost.  You could pull a bunch of Mars creatures back, but that means you've been playing a bunch of Mars creatures, and any smart opponent isn't going to let them just sit there waiting for you to make this move.
  • Key Charge (Untamed) - Probably the easiest to pull off, since all it requires is for you to have the current cost + 1. 
  • Epic Quest (Sanctum) - Pulls back all Knights when played, then can be sacrificed if you played 7 or more Sanctum cards that turn to forge a key for free.  So you're going to be slapping down Knights trying to have a bunch in play when you play Epic Quest, so you can play them as part of the 7 Sanctum cards.  Or you're working your Archive to be able to pull 7 Sanctum cards out.  Either way, it's going to take some work to do this, all while your opponent isn't just watching you in awe.

And that's it.  Out of seven decks, I have three cards -- all in different decks -- that let me forge out of sequence.  All but one require a good bit of setup to pull off, and the easiest still requires you to have at least 13 Aember at the start of your turn.

I don't have Epic Quest, I have only 1 deck out of 7 that has Sanctum😞 , I do have a Key Charge and Chota Hazri in my deck Lady "Rebel" Hahl

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11 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

If you want interactivity FFG isn't really the place for you. That said, given the usual tempo of their games, I'm okay with anything that accelerates the rate of play.  

Why do you say that? 

I've never experienced anything like  "non-interactivity" when it comes to FFG games.

If you need up tempo games,  I gots no problems pulling out Pit or Dutch Blitz and we can go all twitch skillz.

 

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2 hours ago, DailyRich said:

And that's it.  Out of seven decks, I have three cards -- all in different decks -- that let me forge out of sequence.  All but one require a good bit of setup to pull off, and the easiest still requires you to have at least 13 Aember at the start of your turn.

Actually, Keyforge only requires 6 at the start of the turn and the ability to generate 7 over the turn - which is 'relatively' easy with untamed - full moon to a pair of pixies and a reap.

 

Still tricky, but a much easier double forge!

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Here’s all the key forging cards I’ve seen so far:

Key of Darkness (Shadow, Action, Rare) - Play: Forge a Key at +6 amber of current cost. If your opponent has no amber, forge a key at +2 amber current cost instead.

Epic Quest (Sanctum, Artifact, Rare) - Play: Archive each friendly Knight creature in play. Omni: If you have played 7 or more Sanctum cards this turn, sacrifice Epic Quest and forge a Key at no cost.

Chota Hazri (Untamed, Creature (3 power, Human, Witch), Uncommon) - Play: Lose 1. If you do, you may forge a key at current cost. 

Key Charge (Untamed, Action, Common) - Play: Lose 1. If you do, you may forge a key at current cost. 

This doesn’t take into account the numerous cards that increase key cost, or prevent a key from being forged on the opponent’s turn at all. So, they’re good, yes, but so are cards that divert all gained amber onto a creature, etcetera.

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