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eScoub

Some clarification needed

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Hi there!

We had a blast playing our first 5th ed L5R game yesterday, but we had some discussion about a few techniques/opportunities containing the following sentance: then you may add a a kept Ring Die set to an Opportunity result instead.

Does that mean that we should ADD an opportunity to the result ? Or can the player keep an additional Ring Die that rolled an Opportunity on his check ?

The second version implies that you gain no benefit when Rolling without Skill Dice. Am I right ?

 

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Thanks for the answer, but it's still unclear to me.

If the aim is to get an auto Opportunity, this is badly written.

Let's pick an exemple with a Kistuki (rank 1) using his school technique for investigation:

- He rolls Skullduggery (2) + Fire (3) and should keeps 3 dices.

-Skill dices get 1 succes, Ring dices get 1 success, and 2 opportunities.

Our Kitsuki is now able to keep : 2 success dices and 1 opp + the other Ring Dice that rolled opp. That's the way I see it. Being able to keep more dice, given these dices rolled an opp.

Therefore no "bonus" on unskilled check, as you roll only Ring Dices.

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No, I think in that case, the Kitsuki gets to add an entirely new extra die (ex nihilo, as if he had rolled it) showing an opportunity and keep it, on top of the three he already keeps. 

So he would have 2 successes and 1 opp from his regular roll, plus an extra opp (or opp/Strife if you want to bank on the Fire Stance bonus). 

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6 minutes ago, eScoub said:

So he basically gains a free opportunity ? You literally pick a Ring Dice and set it to opportunity ?

Yes, but it is a "kept dice".

So it is added after rerolls/modifying dicepool, so that extra opportunity cannot be changed by any mean.

Why do they write it like that (add a kept dice) instead of just "add an opportunity"? i dont know, but maybe some very special actions could affect a "kept dicepool".

 

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9 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Why do they write it like that (add a kept dice) instead of just "add an opportunity"?

I think it’s because you can chose any side showing an opportunity, and for a Ring die, this can be either straight opp or opp+strife. Why would someone pick an extra Strife? Well in the example above rolling with Fire, that’s one bonus success if you made the TN :)

EDIT: I could be wrong on that one, and in that case I really don’t know why the technique doesn’t just read “add one free opportunity”...

Edited by Franwax

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51 minutes ago, Franwax said:

EDIT: I could be wrong on that one, and in that case I really don’t know why the technique doesn’t just read “add one free opportunity”...

There are two points you could add 'results', and the rules need to define which one it is:

Adding 'rolled dice' - means you get that many dice added to the pool you can choose dice from (up to your Ring rank plus any bonuses), so you get them but may not use them because you choose to keep a different die.  Example: Previously 'reserved' dice with channelling, centre actions, or striking-as-air.

Adding 'kept dice' - means you get to add that dice after you've down-selected to your kept dice, so you get that result in the final calculation in addition to your normal allowance. Example: Togashi Tatoos, Speaking in Silence, Boon of Benten Omamori.

It's specifically adding dice so that on the off chance a special ability pops up in some later expansion which triggers off the number of kept dice, or allows you to 'spend' kept dice before resolving them for some effect, or whatever, the extra results are still 'visible' to that rules trigger.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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Yep, the fact that OPP can come with Strife on the dice is the key about the formulation!

I like the "no floating result" formula :lol:

 

Another explanation is needed here on another "rule": one of my player's character is using kiho, and the player selected Flame Fist. And we were wondering:

-Activation is TN 1 Martial (Fire), ok, and is an Attack and Support action.

Is the Attack tag there because of the Burst effect ? Because it requires a line of sight

As the activation is an Attack, does it mean that is actually IS an attack and should be resolved as such with the kiho effect (and damage the target) ?

Or, is it only to activate the effect, cause damage to target if you roll 2+ Successes with the Burst effect ? In this case, do Bonus Successes add to the damage as usual ? If the player rolls 5 Successes, does he inflict Fire Ring + 3 physical damage ? Is it "normal" that the Burst effect deals physical damage when the "purpose" of this kiho is to switch the damage to Supernatural ?

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Way I read it, the TN1 activation only activates the enhancement effect. It's tagged as Support/Attack for other mechanical effects that affect certain types of actions (this combo of tags is particularly mean because it triggers the penalty of both Dazed and Disoriented conditions).

If you roll 3+ successes, you also get to damage one target as an added bonus. This is just physical damage equal to your Fire ring, not enhanced by additional successes. I guess the damage type is different from the punches and kicks you will start doing next turn because it's a tacked on, different effect (I picture an initial shower of flames scorching the target as the monk activates the technique, while subsequent unarmed attacks glow with supernatural fire).

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20 hours ago, Franwax said:

Way I read it, the TN1 activation only activates the enhancement effect.

Correct. The check itself is basically throwing out  small burst of fire.

"The monk throws a rapid, reckless strike, and flame streams out, seizing and charring whatever the monk touches."

22 hours ago, eScoub said:

As the activation is an Attack, does it mean that is actually IS an attack and should be resolved as such with the kiho effect (and damage the target) ?

It's an attack, but it's not a Strike action, and it's not using any specific weapon.

"While this kihō is active, treat the deadliness of your unarmed punch and kick profiles (see page 237) as increased by your Fire Ring"

Since Flame Fist isn't using Punch or Kick statlines (it does a flat Fire Ring damage), the enhancement doesn't apply to the burst 'hit'

22 hours ago, eScoub said:

 In this case, do Bonus Successes add to the damage as usual ? If the player rolls 5 Successes, does he inflict Fire Ring + 3 physical damage ?

No. That is a property of specific attack actions (like Strike). An action only does what it says it does. The actions which do "weapon damage plus bonus successes" will specifically say in their action description that they do. If they don't (like flame fist) then they don't.

All Strike Actions are Attack Actions, not all Attack Actions are Strike Actions - so an attack doesn't, for example, have the "**: inflict a critical strike" unless it specifically says it does.

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O Are there any official rules clarification on how this Asahina school ability works, or on how the “add kept ring die set to X” works?

My GM is interpreting this ability in a way that nerfs it greatly. In his point of view, what the “add kept ring die set to opportunity” means is that you can choose to keep extra ring die that you rolled and got opportunity side up in your final kept dice, and not that you add extra kept dice.

For example, by his ruling, if the Asahina conjures a weapon with Air 3 and Theology 3, and the ring dice go blank, success/strife and opportunity and the skill dice go success, success and opportunity, he’ll pick the 3 kept dice (the three skill ones, for example) and then he’d be able to choose rolled ring dice that went opportunity face up equal to his school rank and add to the kept pool, instead of adding extra die. So, in this case, he’d be able to pick just the one air die that went opportunity, regardless of his school rank, instead of adding extra die (also, if you didn’t roll any opportunities in your ring dice, no luck for you). 

I tried showing him both this topic and a reddit topic that says the same thing, but he says that “random people on forums aren’t official rules”. If there’d be at least an errata explaining how the “add kept die set to X” works, since the rule book doesn’t go over this in the “rolling dice” section, it could better clarify this, since his ruling as it stands nerfs other abilities, like the Benten’ Omamori.

Edit: we just read page 27 of the rulebook where it kinda explains the “add kept die” stuff, but according to him it doesn’t explicitly say that you add dice from outside the pool, so you must add dice that you rolled.

Edited by Supermouse

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Sorry, Supermouse. You would probably get more answers if you started a new thread, but I'll give it a try. Out of all the vague rules that are in this edition I do not include adding a kept die among them. It's very straightforward.  

Add a Kept Die: When an effect says to add a kept die, after Step 5: Choose Kept Dice (so after you have discarded all non-kept die with their symbols unused per pg. 24), place one die of the noted type (ring die) in the pool set to the specified result (opportunity) . It is a kept die.

Nowhere in there does it state to keep an additional rolled ring die if it shows an opportunity. The mere definition of the word "add" should help keep this rule clear.

To be honest, I don't think it needs to be stated more clearly than it already does, but I doubt your gm will take my word for it, so you may be in a hard place.

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On 12/2/2018 at 6:44 PM, Supermouse said:

Edit: we just read page 27 of the rulebook where it kinda explains the “add kept die” stuff, but according to him it doesn’t explicitly say that you add dice from outside the pool, so you must add dice that you rolled.

I don't know if it'll help, but ask him to look up step 5 ("choose kept dice") of making a check, since adding a kept die is done explicitly after step 5. Step 5 ends with removing all dropped dice. In other words, at the end of step 5 your dice pool only contains kept dice as the dropped dice are discarded with their results unused. You don't have any rolled dice left to look through to potentially add to your kept dice, because you only have kept dice at that point.

Edit: also, "set to" literally means the die got set, not rolled, to a specific result.

Edited by nameless ronin

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Yeah, my GM is still using the mindset of the previous systems, se he thinks we are still using the “roll x keep y” system. That’s why whenever they say “add a kept die” he interprets it just as increasing the number of the k, like the old “+0k1” we used to see in 4e. I’ll try to show him the full rules of the steps of a check, specially the step 5 where all the dropped dice are removed.

Either way, I asked for a formal clarification on the FFG channel, waiting for an official response just so I can rub it in his face.

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This is a very strange topic to me. Some points;

1. When you add a kept die, that die is added from outside the pool into the pool. Page 27 has the relevant text; "When an effect says add a kept die, after Step 5: Choose Kept Dice, place one die of the noted type in the pool set to specified result. It is a kept die." Because it says "...place one die of the noted type IN THE POOL" that means the die does not come from within the pool. 

2. If an effect says "add a kept die" that die is kept in addition to all others. It does not say on page 27 that you "must keep this die." It says that die is added, and then it is kept. If it counted against your maximum kept dice the text would be explicit. When in doubt in L5R err on the side of flexibility; that is the way of Fantasy Flight RPGs (Star Wars, Genesys, etc).

3. The reason why you add dice set to a particular result rather than just adding particular results to a check without the dice is because of Step 5: Choose Kept Dice on page 24. The last line says, "Then, any effects that modify kept dice are resolved." Although most dice modifications are made during the appropriately named Step 4: Modify Rolled Dice, if an effect specifies modifying kept dice it occurs at the end of Step 5: Choose Kept Dice instead. For example, if an effect says that you can re-roll a kept die, you could re-roll a kept die that was set to a particular result.

3. I really don't understand this assumption that such abilities are only useful if you're only rolling ring dice. That literally makes no sense. If you're making a check and you want more opportunities than successes (for instance, when you're trying to score a Critical Hit with a Razor-Edged weapon or when using the Striking as Fire kata) adding a kept opportunity is going to help you matter what's in your dice pool.

One thing to keep in mind is that 5th Edition L5R is the love child of 4th Edition L5R and Fantasy Flight's Genesys, which in turn is a generic clone of FF's Star Wars system. Understanding the mindset of Fantasy Flight RPGs will help you understand the mindset of 5th Edition. To put it simply, Fantasy Flight RPGs are *not* all that strict. If a rule seems inflexible or absolute, chances are that might be your brain holding over info from a previous edition of L5R. Fantasy Flight RPGs are fun and sometimes even intricate mechanically, but they're far more focused on creating a narrative rather than crunching numbers or restricting actions.

Another thing to keep in mind is that previous editions had ways for players to increase the number of kept dice they roll, and in those editions you choose which dice you kept from your already assembled pool. This edition goes a different route; it's pretty strict about you only getting to keep your ring value in kept dice for each check. Only very specific abilities add kept dice, and those very specific abilities will usually only add dice set to opportunity results. (In other words they'll help you achieve cool special effects but they probably won't help you pass the check.)

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Heh, so I got an official answer from Max himself (hint: it was, obviously, the same thing that I thought and that everyone here already said), thus I managed to rub it on the GM's face.

Now he's saying that the ability is too broken and overpowered, because a Rank 4 Asahina Artificer can 1 hit ko anyone with an Earthquake, and that it needs to be nerfed because the designers didn't preview what would happen in too high school ranks.


I guess we can never win.

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asahina is busted since the "errata" (yes that same errata which had a lot of errors in it!). they allowed the use of their school ability on way too many things.

 

 

edit: from yours truly. saw right away how the asahina ability was busted.

Posted November 1

"oh and btw, If they really intend Asahina to use their school ability all the time on all the invocations they say it can be used with... it is very, very busted. Maybe should be once per scene in that case lol ... all the time ? insanity."

 

Edited by Avatar111

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You can kill someone session 1 as a Kakita if you get a finishing blow with Rising Slash and roll like one extra success. Anybody can do it with a little EXP for Rising Slash after. 

Your GM may not be very well equipped for this game philosophically. You can kill anybody with a Katana real easy way before Rank 4. And if Asahina-san keeps opening up chasms in the countryside, the people who own that country side will be very upset and ask you to stop it. 

(Also EDIT, make sure you're not within R1 when you drop the Earthquake chasm, you'll throw yourself in too)

Edited by UnitOmega

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6 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

You can kill someone session 1 as a Kakita if you get a finishing blow with Rising Slash and roll like one extra success. Anybody can do it with a little EXP for Rising Slash after. 

Your GM may not be very well equipped for this game philosophically. You can kill anybody with a Katana real easy way before Rank 4. And if Asahina-san keeps opening up chasms in the countryside, the people who own that country side will be very upset and ask you to stop it. 

you know there is an optional rule for narratively oriented player in the GM section ? that says all techniques are just there for narrative fluff ? 

that's right up your alley.

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