Jump to content
Ragnar82

2 questions about Poltergeist

Recommended Posts

I would also like to apologize to anyone that feels I've been taking this too seriously.  Text is tricky, and while this is admittedly bugging me I do appreciate it's just a game.  I seem to like the game so much that I get a little frustrated when it seems it wasn't given the care and attention needed to avoid situations like this arising, and they seem to be arising more and more.  (As an aside, apparently there was recently a ruling about cards like Gateway to Dis and the order that creatures are destroyed that perfectly matched my understanding of the game, so not all conflicts go contrary to my very strange brain. :) )

I genuinely do understand why some, perhaps most, are not having the disconnect I am with the wording of Poltergeist.  I get how it is meant to work, there's a leap in logic I'm having trouble reconciling though, for whatever reason.  When something makes sense in our heads and someone tells us our thought process is incorrect we, or at least I, try to explain my thinking to others in the hopes of them seeing where I'm coming from, all in an attempt to be reassured that despite being wrong, my objections do make sense.

Anyway, I do enjoy the discussions here, even when I'm on the losing side, and I hope we can continue without hard feelings or too much annoyance.

 

Thanks for reading. 👍

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, dperello said:

I would also like to apologize to anyone that feels I've been taking this too seriously.  Text is tricky, and while this is admittedly bugging me I do appreciate it's just a game.  I seem to like the game so much that I get a little frustrated when it seems it wasn't given the care and attention needed to avoid situations like this arising, and they seem to be arising more and more.  (As an aside, apparently there was recently a ruling about cards like Gateway to Dis and the order that creatures are destroyed that perfectly matched my understanding of the game, so not all conflicts go contrary to my very strange brain. :) )

I genuinely do understand why some, perhaps most, are not having the disconnect I am with the wording of Poltergeist.  I get how it is meant to work, there's a leap in logic I'm having trouble reconciling though, for whatever reason.  When something makes sense in our heads and someone tells us our thought process is incorrect we, or at least I, try to explain my thinking to others in the hopes of them seeing where I'm coming from, all in an attempt to be reassured that despite being wrong, my objections do make sense.

Anyway, I do enjoy the discussions here, even when I'm on the losing side, and I hope we can continue without hard feelings or too much annoyance.

 

Thanks for reading. 👍

 

Hey no harm done, in the end we all want the same thing and that's to fully grasp the game so when it comes down to it no ones in the middle of a match frustrated that a card functioned differently than they thought.
I totally understand your thought process and indeed in most games that tends to be exactly how it works, keyforge seems to have gone in a different direction. Though I think the lax ruling on being able to play nearly any card as long as some of the effects are possible (with exceptions like upgrades) is likely do to how reliant the game becomes at refilling your hand with new cards each turn to keep the strategy moving and the side effect of gaining aember on many cards simply for playing them regardless of their base effect since forging 3 keys can already take a decent length of time as is compared to other such games where total game length is shorter.

Edited by TwitchyBait

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, dperello said:

I would also like to apologize to anyone that feels I've been taking this too seriously.  Text is tricky, and while this is admittedly bugging me I do appreciate it's just a game.  I seem to like the game so much that I get a little frustrated when it seems it wasn't given the care and attention needed to avoid situations like this arising, and they seem to be arising more and more.  (As an aside, apparently there was recently a ruling about cards like Gateway to Dis and the order that creatures are destroyed that perfectly matched my understanding of the game, so not all conflicts go contrary to my very strange brain. :) )

I genuinely do understand why some, perhaps most, are not having the disconnect I am with the wording of Poltergeist.  I get how it is meant to work, there's a leap in logic I'm having trouble reconciling though, for whatever reason.  When something makes sense in our heads and someone tells us our thought process is incorrect we, or at least I, try to explain my thinking to others in the hopes of them seeing where I'm coming from, all in an attempt to be reassured that despite being wrong, my objections do make sense.

Anyway, I do enjoy the discussions here, even when I'm on the losing side, and I hope we can continue without hard feelings or too much annoyance.

 

Thanks for reading. 👍

 

You may be having the same problem most of us are having coming off of other card games. It been really annoying to have to stop using MtG logic when i read Keyforge cards. Old habits die hard. Where all trying to use familiar stuff on a new games and getting hits and misses.

I got confuesed the first time i read Poltergeist as well. I had to read it two more time before the second sentence really stuck out and DAMAYC fit in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/21/2018 at 7:48 PM, twinstarbmc said:

Ask, and ye shall receive.

"When resolving a card ability, resolve as much of the ability as can be resolved, and ignore the rest."

Play: Use an artifact controlled by any player as if it were yours. Destroy that artifact.

So, part A: "Use an artifact controlled by any player as if it were yours." I attempt to use an artifact that can't be used. By the "resolve as much as you can" rule, this is perfectly fine.

Bart B: "Destroy that artifact." That part works.

[fin]

How far could you push DAMAYC? Just for fun:

Playing Poltergeist, I choose my Dust Imp as the Artifact. 

Oh, I know it's not an Artifact —nevertheless it's the Artifact I choose.

Because it's not an Artifact I can't use it, but that's OK too. 

"Destroy that Artifact". Still not an Artfact, but I'll guess I just do as much as I can and ignore the rest, and go ahead and "destroy that". 

Tounge in cheek, of course. I like DAMAYC very much as an idea, but it has to be paired with a MUCH (yeah I all-capped) more stringent use of basic English. 

Edited by Ripcordian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Ripcordian said:

How far could you push DAMAYC? Just for fun:

Playing Poltergeist, I choose my Dust Imp as the Artifact. 

Oh, I know it's not an Artifact —nevertheless it's the Artifact I choose.

Because it's not an Artifact I can't use it, but that's OK too. 

"Destroy that Artifact". Still not an Artfact, but I'll guess I just do as much as I can and ignore the rest, and go ahead and "destroy that". 

Tounge in cheek, of course. I like DAMAYC very much as an idea, but it has to be paired with a MUCH (yeah I all-capped) more stringent use of basic English. 

That was my point all along.  Claiming this falls under DAMAYC is, well, preposterous, given that there are at least a couple rules that ought to be followed when using the English language.  I don't care that Poltergeist can destroy an Artifact that has a whole section of the rulebook describing how said Artifact can never, ever, ever be "used" in any way.  What I care about is the ridiculous idea that the words written on Poltergeist would indicate that such a thing is possible.  If FFG wants to make up crazy rulings for each and every card disregarding the actual language used on the cards that's their prerogative, and given the Poltergeist ruling, in my mind that is the current state of the game, because what a card says and what it does is clearly not always consistent.

I've given up trying to guess what a ruling might be because you can't go by RAW and you can't go by actual card text,so it truly is a jungle out there... 😛

Edited by dperello

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, it's easier to recognize a few things:

  1. "Target", as defined by Magic: the Gathering, does not exist as a concept in Keyforge. You can be required to choose something that meets a specific set of characteristics, but it is not targeted per se.
  2. The original Magic: the Gathering cards had templating that was just as sucky. And while I would strongly prefer that templating rules be created for future Keyforge sets, we have to deal with what's here for now. The reason rulings are like a jungle is because we don't have defined templates yet.
  3. I would not be surprised if the lack of templates is intentional. It avoids the need for a Keyforge Comprehensive Rulebook to explain them all, albeit at the expense of having cards that "shorthand" their intended effects and having rulings where "you" doesn't mean "you" when combined with "may". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Rabbitball said:

For me, it's easier to recognize a few things:

  1. "Target", as defined by Magic: the Gathering, does not exist as a concept in Keyforge. You can be required to choose something that meets a specific set of characteristics, but it is not targeted per se.

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Poltergeist is letting you choose a card that the rules have their own section on how you could never choose the card because it can't be chosen by choosing it the way that Poltergeist chooses a card.  See, no use of "target" at all... 😛

In seriousness I appreciate your thoughts,  though I'm not looking for any sort of templates beyond using English the way English actually works.  The looseness apparent in KeyForge's language has reached the point, at least for me, where the words and phrases that appear on the cards are only vaguely relevant to what the card actually does.  Now of course I'm being hyperbolic here and hope no one thinks I'm suggesting the cards contain nothing but gobbledygook, but given some of the rulings I cannot with any sense of certainty predict what a card is actually supposed to do.  I still love playing the game with friends, but holy cow do we ever not take any of it seriously in any way whatsoever.  Hopefully they'll eventually clean the language up to make it at least follow English rules, but until then, your guess is as good as mine... :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dperello said:

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Poltergeist is letting you choose a card that the rules have their own section on how you could never choose the card because it can't be chosen by choosing it the way that Poltergeist chooses a card.  See, no use of "target" at all... 😛

In seriousness I appreciate your thoughts,  though I'm not looking for any sort of templates beyond using English the way English actually works.  The looseness apparent in KeyForge's language has reached the point, at least for me, where the words and phrases that appear on the cards are only vaguely relevant to what the card actually does.  Now of course I'm being hyperbolic here and hope no one thinks I'm suggesting the cards contain nothing but gobbledygook, but given some of the rulings I cannot with any sense of certainty predict what a card is actually supposed to do.  I still love playing the game with friends, but holy cow do we ever not take any of it seriously in any way whatsoever.  Hopefully they'll eventually clean the language up to make it at least follow English rules, but until then, your guess is as good as mine... :)


The point about not having a target was related to the templating issue. Magic got so big it had to define many words in a technical sense, such as "target". And Keyforge does some of that as well, which seems to be your issue with Poltergeist. They defined "use" when it comes to abilities for creatures and certain artifacts, but then tried to use the word "use" in the standard English way without clarifying. (Forgive me for that horrid construction!)

Despite the obvious desire to avoid getting so crunchy, I am hoping we get to a point where we actually have standard, defined, and precise templates for the technical terms of Keyforge, and that uses outside of template are purged from future cards. This may force the need for a Keyforge Comprehensive Rulebook, and if so, I will be happy to help create it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Rabbitball said:


[...] They defined "use" when it comes to abilities for creatures and certain artifacts, but then tried to use the word "use" in the standard English way without clarifying. [...]  I am hoping we get to a point where  we actually have standard, defined, and precise templates for the technical terms of Keyforge, and that uses outside of template are purged from future cards. [...] 

This seems to be at the heart of every KF controversy. The idea of using simple natural language as keywords, collapses when the same words are used as regular words in other instances. Now it unfolds a rules set; now it doesn't. 

To be honest, it usually works out. But when it doesn't, it  r e a l l y  doesn't.

In the case of Poltergeist, I want it to work as ruled by devs. It makes my deck work a lot better. But the card just doesn't say that. So I feel really awkward having to make arguments for it against an opponent in a gaming situation. It's just not fun. 

Edit: sometimes you are supposed to read the card text very literal, almost like a savant would. Other times you are supposed to just get the intention, even if it goes against your most basic interpretation. 

Language is a set of conventions. When we throw out a word such as "it", we are counting on another person to decode what that tag refers to. When we perceive someone as coherent we are seldom confused by this. When someone is playing fast and loose with theese basic blocks, the whole communication becomes rickety. 

Edited by Ripcordian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ripcordian said:

This seems to be at the heart of every KF controversy. The idea of using simple natural language as keywords, collapses when the same words are used as regular words in other instances. Now it unfolds a rules set; now it doesn't. 

To be honest, it usually works out. But when it doesn't, it  r e a l l y  doesn't.

In the case of Poltergeist, I want it to work as ruled by devs. It makes my deck work a lot better. But the card just doesn't say that. So I feel really awkward having to make arguments for it against in a gaming situation. It's just not fun. 

I was already resigned to having to make versions of Magic's Tournament Documents, such as the Infraction & Penalty Guide and possibly a Keyforge Comprehensive Rules document, but now with this, there may have to be a templated card guide that gives the card text in precise templated language rather than the freeform writing we have now. 😒

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...