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Rules for 3d??

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Has anyone seen anything, or tried themselves, to come up with rules to try and make the game more '3 dimensional'? Like when a ship maneuvers, it has not just the X and Y axis, but a Z axis?? 

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Not really. But you could make up your own. Like for example:

  • Find 3 tokens that are the same from behind, but in front they have 3 different symbols. Treat each of them as [Up], [Down], and [-]. Let's call them the Z tokens.
  • When setting your dial face down, also pick and place one of your Z tokens face down.
  • When revealing your dial, reveal also your Z token. If it is Up or Down, and your maneuver was blue or white, increase the difficulty of your maneuver. Then add or remove one peg under your ship depending on if you revealed Up or Down. (If you revealed an Up or Down Z token and your dialed maneuver was red, don't add or remove pegs under your ship)
  • You cannot have more than 5 pegs under your ship, or fewer than 1.
  • When measuring range between attacker and defender, increase the measured range by the absolute difference in the amount of pegs the attacker and the defender have. For example, if the attacker has 1 peg, and the defender has 3 pegs, and the range ruler measures range 1, the final range is 1+|3-1| = 3.
  • When dropping a bomb token, you must place on the bomb token a numeric die or other indicator that shows the height at which it was dropped (from 1 to 5), that matches the height of the bombing ship at the moment of it being dropped. Bombs affect objects that are up to 1 peg above or below their own height.
  • When overlapping another ships base, you only lose your action if your ship is at the exact peg height as the other ship.
    Resolve the overlapping as usual, otherwise.
    Remember that ships at range 0 of another cannot declare the other ship as defender, but peg height difference adds to this measured range, so ships whose bases are touching aren't considered to be at range 0 of each other if they have different amounts of pegs under them.

Special considerations:

  • Some ships don't allow pegs under them. In particular, the Ghost, or any of the huge ships.
  • Treat the huge ships as if they are always at peg height of 0. (They are like in the background of the battlefield). 
  • Indicate the peg height of the Ghost with a numeric die on its base.
  • Asteroids and debris are present at heights 0 to 5, simultaneously. Imagine they are like columns of rocks or junk, like this:
    EVERSPACE-Asteroid-Destruction-Screensho
Edited by Azrapse

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Altitude mechanics are important for aerial combat in atmosphere because different airframes have different performance characteristics at different altitudes. Some perform better at low altitude. Some are better at climbing. Some better at diving.  None of that applies in space.

3D mechanics in Star Wars just gets you 3D firing arcs. There's no advantage at being above the target.  There is no up and no down.

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3D rules are typically overkill for starship combat games. There are some very detailed ones out there that handle it pretty well. Attack Vector Tactical terms were even used on the Battlestar Galactica show (I'm sure not directly because of the game, but the terms used made sense: "Roll 60 degrees to port" or something similar). AVT was designed by an astrophysicist, so it's as accurate as you can get. The same guy came up with an Honor Harrington system using a streamlined version of the rules - the Saginami Island Tactical Simulator. My favorite 3D system though was With Hostile Intent, created by a guy that does visual effects for movies. The system was ingenious and simple to use and he even created magnetic ship rotators that locked in position to change the angle of your ships.

After reading through all of those rules I still never even bothered with them because 3D movement simply doesn't add enough to the game. Even realistic vectored movement doesn't add to space combat. It just makes movement more predictable. Star Wars rarely even depicts ships operating outside the same plane. Fighters may occasionally fly over or under a ship, but that movement doesn't really mean anything, other than ships don't block line of sight, which is already in the rules.

So, yeah, that was a really long-winded way of saying what my first sentence said. LOL. 3D is not required, like most of this post. 😛

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There was an 'altitude' element to Dungeons & Dragons: Attack Wing, but that was because the game also had elements not in X-wing; a specific 'ground level', ground-only units (and units which had a different dial on the ground to in the air - big ancient dragons basically had to land to turn around ), and a distinction between 'ranged' and 'melee' attacks.

The game had 'landed' and 'low level' tokens for units capable of flight, which did more or less the same as is suggested.

The main issues are:

  • Having too many levels of height makes it easy to run away - because a faster ship can 'duck' or 'climb' to range 3 or beyond, it becomes a lot harder to 'pin' more elusive foes (like Dash Rendar) against a board edge or corner, and (in the specific case of @Azrapse's suggestion - which are creative but have a few issues - operating 1 altitude level clear of your opponent makes you functionally immune to bombs). Having trouble turning is one thing, but ships with poor turns will now be unable to match a climb or dive even if they take stress to turn, meaning they'll really struggle to engage an opponent.
  • There's no real 'advantage' to high or low other than just increasing the space to run away into. In 'atmospheric dogfighting' games, like Aeronautica Imperialis (the old 40k one), altitude matters a lot, because you trade it for speed, but the ground targets which win you the mission are at the bottom of the altitude pile, and - as noted by @Arschbombe you get different ships having altitude limits - up to and including some fighters being able to disengage through the 'top' of the map.

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10 hours ago, Arschbombe said:

3D mechanics in Star Wars just gets you 3D firing arcs. There's no advantage at being above the target.  There is no up and no down.

What.

PLENTY of ways in which having a Z axis can matter. For instance, let's say you're chasing a TIE in an X-wing. He pulls a Flat 1 Turn, and say that for whatever reason you can't counter with a Tallon Roll, leaving you to follow with a flat 2 or 3 Turn. You're going to overshoot the turn and he can swing back in behind you.

Now imagine instead of that Flat 2, you instead make an oblique 2 into the Z axis. You're still turning wider, but rather than downrange motion you're translating the extra movement into vertical motion instead. On the following turn when you come back down you're right back in the saddle again (this is basically what the Tallon Roll and S-Loop abstracts).

A 3D X-Wing could SIGNIFICANTLY alter the dynamics of the fight.

Edited by Ambaryerno

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I don't know about X-wing but it has been done for in Armada in sort of a way.

For X-wing it would be a little more difficult given dials are all two dimensional, and dials give the hidden aspect information of the game that makes movement seem rather instantaneous. With Armada movement uses a tool which can technically be rotated 45 or even 90 degrees and still maintain the movement profile of Armada ships. 

Not to say that depth abstraction is impossible. For one of my proposals for making an X-wing sliding scale Star Destroyer for Epic, I cam up with a concept of "Influence zone" which connects the separate bases as a target for range but also allows ships to fly through without getting smashed.

Going into it will require a ship to specify if it is over (exposed to more guns but in range of the bridge) or under (less guns, cannot attack bridge, in range of docking bay) through use of another token of course.

Star-Destroyer-Base.png

So not  completely 3 dimensional as in 3 axis of movement in a terms but additional layer does add depth to the game and it is characterized by a comparison of the position of 2 different objects in relation to each other. So I think this can work (can also be used for other Capital class ships such as Nebulon-B. Dreadnought and Mon calamari Star Cruiser).

Edited by Marinealver

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28 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

For X-wing it would be a little more difficult given dials are all two dimensional, and dials give the hidden aspect information of the game that makes movement seem rather instantaneous.

You can still do the same in X-wing. Vertical movement would simply require using one of the turn or bank templates to "pull up" or "dive" into the Z axis.

Edited by Ambaryerno

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34 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

You can still do the same in X-wing. Vertical movement would simply require using one of the turn or bank templates to "pull up" or "dive" into the Z axis.

not the same, unless you have a 2nd dial for turning and even then you would have to make a movement profile for that dial as well (especially for reversal maneuvers). 

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5 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

not the same, unless you have a 2nd dial for turning and even then you would have to make a movement profile for that dial as well (especially for reversal maneuvers). 

Why? You're operating in vacuum, so it's not like there's drag and lift considerations. Most likely ships are rolling into their banks and turns, too, (which we see throughout the films) so the maneuvers are still being executed using the pitch axis. Whether you're pitching to "climb" or pitching to "turn" it's all the same.

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1 hour ago, Ambaryerno said:

Why? You're operating in vacuum, so it's not like there's drag and lift considerations. Most likely ships are rolling into their banks and turns, too, (which we see throughout the films) so the maneuvers are still being executed using the pitch axis. Whether you're pitching to "climb" or pitching to "turn" it's all the same.

First of all, Star Wars ships don't operate in vacuum, so throw out any physics unless it is done by the havok engine (that is some crazy stuff you can do with it). Yes the ships are rolling and pitching and everything else but with the reversal such as s-loops and t-rolls it is implied that there is more movement going on then what is merely shown in the xy-plane, and that is where full 3 axis of freedom movement fails without a complete overhaul of the dials.

I mean if you want depth, then the best you can do is to have multiple layers but not on an open scale, there should be an object of sorts such as a large ship or a station. 2 or even 3 layers will be enough to provide depth to the game. But if you want a full 3d experience. Then may I suggest a great PC game under the same name.

It is a shame they don't make games like this anymore.

Edited by Marinealver

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6 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

You're all thinking too small! Install a complex series of pillows and strings on the ceiling. Connect your ships to the dangling strings and move them using the pulley system!

Might as well just go with the HoloLens

 

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