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WonderWAAAGH

Tournament Document Doesn’t Define “Dice”

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5 minutes ago, sabrjay said:

from the dictionary

die (noun) an item marked on each face with numbers or symbols and used in various games and in gambling by being shaken and thrown to come to rest at random on a flat surface.

 

Your spin-down meets the definition of a die. Now admit you are wrong.

The problem with this argument is that there *are* dice that are not thrown on a flat surface but instead picked up and rolled to a particular face. This definition is as out of touch with the current uses of dice as the one that says dice are six-sided and have pips and nothing else.

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16 minutes ago, ImhotepMagi said:

The problem with this argument is that there *are* dice that are not thrown on a flat surface but instead picked up and rolled to a particular face. This definition is as out of touch with the current uses of dice as the one that says dice are six-sided and have pips and nothing else.

That is something that is done as a result of rule or game outcome. It's not done like that every single time you use it. It's like asking the asking the dictionary to become a book that is written in legalese.

 

The part of the tournament guide that states "...are resistant to accidental modification..." should have ended this discussion, because there is no arguing that a spin-down cannot be accidentally modified. Doesn't matter if it's technically die or not, it can be accidentally modified, thus it cannot be used.

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5 minutes ago, sabrjay said:

That is something that is done as a result of rule or game outcome. It's not done like that every single time you use it. It's like asking the asking the dictionary to become a book that is written in legalese.

 

The part of the tournament guide that states "...are resistant to accidental modification..." should have ended this discussion, because there is no arguing that a spin-down cannot be accidentally modified. Doesn't matter if it's technically die or not, it can be accidentally modified, thus it cannot be used.

I know that and you know that. It's just that rolling, as defined by throwing it to gain a result, is the crux of the "not a die" argument since spindown dices are not "intended to be rolled".

I agree that it's a die and that even if it weren't it wouldn't be legal. But it definitely is a die.

Edited by ImhotepMagi

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15 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I have googled it. You think I’m out to make myself look smart, but apparently I can’t be bothered to do simple research? Really? The web is littered with forum posts explaining the exact same reasons as I have why a spin-down is not intended to be rolled like a real die. 

Intentions seem to be irrelevant: they are marketed and sold as “Spindown Dice

In any case, actual use is also irrelevant, dice are simply small polyhedrons with various facings to denote information. Often rolled, but as shown here and in other games, not always. 

Official tournament regulations prohibit these items from being used to track things like Amber totals. 

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Did we just produce the 6 pages long argument about if 20 sided die with numbers in different order is a die or not? 

Congratulations guys, we did it, this forum has officially peaked.

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On 11/18/2018 at 8:46 PM, Amanal said:

The tournament rules has this to say (p5):

"Typically, players use the cardboard tokens included in official product as indicators. However, players may choose to use other items as indicators, so long as they do not obscure significant component information, are resistant to accidental modification, and their purpose of use is clear to both players."

A spindown looks like it is quite prone to "accidental modification" for the most part and it has to be clear of function to both players.

So in the first instance I think you ask the player not to use the items then escalate it as needed.

Quoting because OP has yet to respond to this particular point. Whether it's a die or not doesn't matter. Whether you want to call it a die doesn't matter.  Your "20-sided numbered spin-down counter" is not resistant to accidental modification, and therefore disallowed.

Edited by twinstarbmc
cuz I'm an idiot.

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3 hours ago, Zura said:

Did we just produce the 6 pages long argument about if 20 sided die with numbers in different order is a die or not? 

Congratulations guys, we did it, this forum has officially peaked.

Did you see the L5R boards literally catching fire fighting "straight" and "curved"? Those were good times.

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TBF nothing but tracking it on paper is resistant to accidental modification. Granted I think this is a stupid rule(not allowing dice), but this is also a ridiculous hill to die(😁) on, and is grasping at straws.

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7 hours ago, Zura said:

Did we just produce the 6 pages long argument about if 20 sided die with numbers in different order is a die or not? 

Congratulations guys, we did it, this forum has officially peaked.

Welcome to the internet...  Or the mind of a gamer... 😛

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On 11/18/2018 at 8:39 PM, WonderWAAAGH said:

Find me a tournament that allows them for anything other than tracking. Or maybe a WotC article. 

Several officially sponsored M:tG promotional events, demos, etc I've watched or attended... including popular web series Spellslingers (which is both sponsored by and overseen for rules accuracy by people from WotC)... utilize "spin down" counters for random determination of first player status. That makes them interchangeable with "dice" no matter how you choose to personally interpret the use of the exclusively marketing based term "spin down counter".

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