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WonderWAAAGH

Tournament Document Doesn’t Define “Dice”

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50 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

 

If you don't like me you don't have to respond. No one is forcing you to be here, nor read anything that I write. Godspeed, friend.

Awwwwww...don't like your flaws being exposed? Then don't make ridiculous posts. Keep making them, I'll keep exposing them. Likewise, you can ignore me if you don't like reading about your flaws. Your advice works both ways.

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1 minute ago, sabrjay said:

Awwwwww...don't like your flaws being exposed? Then don't make ridiculous posts. Keep making them, I'll keep exposing them. Likewise, you can ignore me if you don't like reading about your flaws. Your advice works both ways.

I think I'll do that, and report you for being toxic while I'm at it. Thanks for the advice.

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Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

I think I'll do that, and report you for being toxic while I'm at it. Thanks for the advice.

lol, grow up little boy, and learn to deal with criticism that is warranted. You've earned every bit in this thread. If I was a baby like you, I'd probably report you for being toxic because of your unwarranted, stubborn stance on dice and what they are. *smdh*

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22 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Actually, the reason it’s not considered a die is because it doesn’t have the same odds as a d20. Manipulating a spin-down is considerably easier due to the layout, hence why you’re not allowed to roll them for random outcomes. 

Is it weighted? Are any of the sides larger or smaller than another side? Are there repeat numbers?

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2 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Are you being rhetorical, or do you really want me to explain more? I honestly can’t tell. 

I’m honestly asking, because these are the only factors that would make your claim that it doesn’t have the same odds as a D20 true. 

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Not as far as I’m aware, no. Rather than a random or deliberate separation of each die face, a spin-down has the next highest / lowest number immediately adjacent. You could, potentially, roll it along a certain axis for a specific outcome, but it’s much more likely that you could roll deliberately high or low, depending on which is more favorable at the time. 

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In other words, it's still a dice.  That adjacent numbers appear on adjacent faces simply makes it a less appropriate one for most games.  A game could easily be designed to use the spin-counter type dice.  For example, imagine a game where rolling odds is good and evens is bad, but rolling high is extreme while rolling low is moderate.  A player then can decide whether he wants extreme or moderate effects, but still have just as much likelihood of failure/success.

Edited by Moraiwe
typos

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16 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Not as far as I’m aware, no. Rather than a random or deliberate separation of each die face, a spin-down has the next highest / lowest number immediately adjacent. You could, potentially, roll it along a certain axis for a specific outcome, but it’s much more likely that you could roll deliberately high or low, depending on which is more favorable at the time. 

Ok but the point still stands, you have 20 sides with 20 different numbers each equally sized and weighted, meaning on a roll where you’re not attempting to roll it in a very specific way (a feat id find impressive) you have a 1/20 odds of rolling any particular number/side... exactly like a D20. The fact that the numbers are ordered differently and thus could be manipulated more easily as you say would bring up the concern of cheating even more so on a spin die would it not?

After all, an oponent is less apt to realize a jump of 1 or 2 than like 1-13 making the spin die be even more fitting of the reason they’re banning dice to begin with

Edited by TwitchyBait

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2 hours ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Not everyone you disagree with in life will be a moron, friend. Some of them might even be smarter than you. 

Spin-downs are not designed nor intended to be rolled, which, by any definition, is the key feature of a die. There's a reason why we don't call them dice in the Magic community.  

Bull poop

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6 minutes ago, TwitchyBait said:

The fact that the numbers are ordered differently and thus could be manipulated more easily as you say would bring up the concern of cheating even more so on a spin die would it not?

Maybe, but it also proves rather emphatically as to why it’s not a die. You don’t roll it, which is the very nature of a die. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

Maybe, but it also proves rather emphatically as to why it’s not a die. You don’t roll it, which is the very nature of a die. 

Except it meets all of the same exact reasons (even more so) that dice are banned, can we agree on that?

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2 minutes ago, TwitchyBait said:

Except it meets all of the same exact reasons (even more so) that dice are banned, can we agree on that?

If you're arguing intent, I suppose. Look, FFG might have said something about why they won't allow dice, but not in the tournament document. Maybe they'll change it, and if they do I'm sure they'll add spin-downs to the list of no-nos. All I'm saying is that right now, without a more specific definition on their part, spin-downs don't qualify as dice. Seems to pretty much be the consensus among everybody who actually uses them, to say nothing of actual dictionaries. 

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1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

If you're arguing intent, I suppose. Look, FFG might have said something about why they won't allow dice, but not in the tournament document. Maybe they'll change it, and if they do I'm sure they'll add spin-downs to the list of no-nos. All I'm saying is that right now, without a more specific definition on their part, spin-downs don't qualify as dice. Seems to pretty much be the consensus among everybody who actually uses them, to say nothing of actual dictionaries. 

And you think a Marshall would allow this on the technicality?

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You said "Spin-downs are not designed nor intended to be rolled, which, by any definition, is the key feature of a die. There's a reason why we don't call them dice in the Magic community."

That is sheer bull poop. You and everyone knows that is just flat out nonsense. They are dice and you are not the definition of the magic community. I too play magic. I and others I play with call them dice or spin down dice. We recognize they are not the standard alternating faces of a traditional d20. But they are still that a d20. They are 'meant' to serve a dual purpose, that of a die and that of a 20 point life counter. Before spin down dice started being used a lot of us used standard d20s. 

I have no idea how long you've been involved in the hobby. When I started it was '93. When Richard Garfield first started promoting this new "collectible card game" to our gaming club at KU he was you can just use your d20 for your life total. Our gaming club was mainly RPGs. At that time it was dominated by D&D. Everyone in the room had fistfuls of d20s. This is how the beta of Magic was presented to players. It was grass roots like book authors used to do before the internet really became common place. The point is spin downs were created specifically because they are dice and it was a more convenient numbering on the faces but they could still be used as dice. 

If you wanted a counter that was NOT a die you picked up one of those counters that had the numbers on a disc and placed a pointer that spins in the middle. The reason those were created was precisely because dice (spin down or standard) could be bumped easily.

So again, in summary, bull poop.

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You’re also not representative of the M;tG community, because I don’t know anybody who uses them as dice, or isn’t aware of why we’re specifically not allowed to use them as such. In short, the fact that you’re doing it wrong with the tacit acceptance of those around you does not make it okay. 

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16 minutes ago, TwitchyBait said:

And you think a Marshall would allow this on the technicality?

The people I play games with, including local FFG event organizers, are avid gamers with a wealth of experience that spans multiple genres. Given the breadth of our collective experience, and reasonable level of open-mindedness (which appears to be in short supply here), I’d say yeah, I stand a fair chance of making my case. 

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1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

The people I play games with, including local FFG event organizers, are avid gamers with a wealth of experience that spans multiple genres. Given the breadth of our collective experience, and reasonable level of open-mindedness (which appears to be in short supply here), I’d say yeah, I stand a fair chance of making my case. 

Well best of luck, I don't see any that would allow it that wouldn't allow any dice to begin with. The only I can see allowing it would also allow any old dice as they both fall under the same line of logic for banning dice to begin with. Local store games and stuff though you're likely right, they probably won't care, I just don't see any larger official tournaments allowing it without outright ignoring the dice ban rationality.

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If you go by the dictionary definition of dice, no die without exactly six sides and pips is a die. The commonly accepted definition of dice is any polyhedral shape with numbers or symbols on them that can be rolled to produce a result 

A spindown die can be rolled to produce a result. It is generally not allowed in competitive settings by the rules of those settings because it is laid out in a way that makes it able to be manipulated. It being less balanced or random doesn't make it any less a die. Weighted dice, "cheater's" dice with duplicate sides, badly balanced dice (either intentional or through poor production) etc. are still dice. The results they produce are produced within a narrower range determined by their design rather than their faces. They are still rolled and produce a result.

Whether it was designed with use as a die doesn't change the fact that it also fits all the criteria of a die as well. Intent doesn't change function. 

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5 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. So that means I can print out dollar bills on my color inkjet printer and call it money, right? Because apparently all that matters is form. 

Counterfeit bills are still bills, they're simply illegal to use. So real money and counterfeit money are both currency, the reason counterfeit bills are illegal is because of the effect they have on the economy, the reason dice aren't allowed is because the designers seem to think they make cheating easier than tokens, ergo it's the effect that matters and the percentile die not only serves that same effect, it does it more efficiently.
You're correct in that they're not exactly the same as a D20 but if the reason dice where banned was because of said effect and you come up with something extremely similar (for sake of argument we'll agree it's not technically a dice because that seems irrelevant to the point here) and provides the exact concern that dice are banned then any official that actually cares about the reasoning will ban it for the same reasoning.

Edited by TwitchyBait

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Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. So that means I can print out dollar bills on my color inkjet printer and call it money, right? Because apparently all that matters is form. 

You can call it money. No one has to accept from you. Moreover, there are specific legal ramifications that prohibit the use of counterfeit US currency. But if you wanted to print up WAAAGH Bucks and try and trade them for things, you would have your own money. It has all the trade backing you can personally give it. Congratulations, now try and get someone to take it.

However, even if we accept your argument that a spindown is a token, the ultimate legality of 3rd party tokens is up to the Marshall or TO. I can bring 26 pieces of rabbit poop to use as aember. It would perform all the functions of tokens as laid out in the rules. I highly doubt I would be allowed to use it. The Marshall or TO may disallow anything that isn't official if it is deemed disruptive or able to be used for cheating and that is their prerogative.

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