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Just now, Nytwyng said:

Shhhh...facts are unwelcome in the “Rey is the ultimate Mary Sue who does everything better than our beloved OT heroes” tirades.

(Because, oddly enough, facts easily disprove that premise, and we can’t have that.)

I strongly believe that if Rey is a Mary Sue then Luke an Anakin are Gary Stu's.

I also don't get the Mary Sue arguments with Rey. She's hardly infallible if anything she's quite a heavily flawed character. Is her writing perfect? Nah, but it's no better or worse than anything else we've seen before in Star Wars.

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30 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Indeed. It makes perfect sense to get rid of all of my Teen Titans comics and merchandise that I’ve enjoyed over the course of some 40 years because I couldn’t stand what they did with the characters in animated and now live action TV series. I mean, what would I be expected to do? Still enjoy what I enjoyed while just now watching the shows I didn’t? What an equally asinine and insane suggestion.

How is "I'm just not enjoying this stuff anymore, so let me pass it on to someone who might get some enjoyment from it" an asinine and insane suggestion?

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6 hours ago, Ebak said:

https://youtu.be/8sarFZJl3h0?t=70

Oh yeah...because that's the smoothest take-off we've seen in all of Star Wars...

as ive told, im not pursuing talk over here as i know everything i need to say to counter every argument that have been directed at me thus far here.....it will all end like one said that it is every person's  opinion and that regardless of your degree of education ...all opinion are equals...

so to me, the new trilogy is pure garbage even though i didnt need to see the second one but just had to read and listen to those who did enought to know that i dont want to see that....

anyway, for your understanding of this video...a person who dont know how to pilot doesnt turn into an all pro pilot after 3minutes 50 seconds of experience...

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1 hour ago, Mefyrx said:

as ive told, im not pursuing talk over here as i know everything i need to say to counter every argument that have been directed at me thus far here.....it will all end like one said that it is every person's  opinion and that regardless of your degree of education ...all opinion are equals...

so to me, the new trilogy is pure garbage even though i didnt need to see the second one but just had to read and listen to those who did enought to know that i dont want to see that....

anyway, for your understanding of this video...a person who dont know how to pilot doesnt turn into an all pro pilot after 3minutes 50 seconds of experience...

Nobody cares that you hate the new trilogy. Nobody even cares that you complain about stuff happening in TLJ without having seen it (and demonstrably getting stuff wrong about it). 

Simply, nobody cares what you hate and don't hate. 

What we generally do care about is being told we're stupid or have "low standards" because we like something you don't. 

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1 hour ago, Mefyrx said:

as ive told, im not pursuing talk over here as i know everything i need to say to counter every argument that have been directed at me thus far here.....it will all end like one said that it is every person's  opinion and that regardless of your degree of education ...all opinion are equals...

so to me, the new trilogy is pure garbage even though i didnt need to see the second one but just had to read and listen to those who did enought to know that i dont want to see that....

anyway, for your understanding of this video...a person who dont know how to pilot doesnt turn into an all pro pilot after 3minutes 50 seconds of experience...

I get that, we’ll just keep going around and around, it is pointless. As Daronil said, it’s more that we take exception to being insulted for our views.

Also, Disney. I demand a full backstory into how Obi Wan outflow Jango Fett in the Ep 2! There is no prior mention of him being an ace pilot and yet he can outlay a notorious bounty hunter.

The whole premise that she is better than Han is ridiculous. She’s good and clearly she knows enough to have some tricks or good instincts...but why can’t she just be a decent pilot?

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To be fair, she *did* say she knew how to pilot, but she'd never been off the planet before. 

 

And Han, as we all know, successfully navigated an asteroid field. The odds of which are 3720 to 1.

Edited by the mercenary

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18 minutes ago, the mercenary said:

To be fair, she *did* say she knew how to pilot, but she'd never been off the planet before. 

 

And Han, as we all know, successfully navigated an asteroid field. The odds of which are 3720 to 1.

I think people are also vastly underestimating the effect the Force had with Rey's piloting. Anakin had never flown a ship before surviving a dogfight, flying into a Trade Federation mothership and blowing it up before escaping back out - because he was strong with the Force. Luke had flown a T-16 Skyhopper, but had never flown anything in space, and certainly not in combat, before shooting down several enemy fighters and then blowing up a Death Star, because he was strong in the Force. 

But suddenly, Rey is a "Mary Sue" because she can do a blundering bumpy take-off, zip through a ruined star destroyer, and escape a handful of TIE fighters, when it's established that she has extensively used a flight simulator - and is strong with the Force?

If Rey is a Mary Sue, then Anakin and Luke are absolutely, 100% the same.

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Just now, Daronil said:

I think people are also vastly underestimating the effect the Force had with Rey's piloting. Anakin had never flown a ship before surviving a dogfight, flying into a Trade Federation mothership and blowing it up before escaping back out - because he was strong with the Force. Luke had flown a T-16 Skyhopper, but had never flown anything in space, and certainly not in combat, before shooting down several enemy fighters and then blowing up a Death Star, because he was strong in the Force. 

But suddenly, Rey is a "Mary Sue" because she can do a blundering bumpy take-off, zip through a ruined star destroyer, and escape a handful of TIE fighters, when it's established that she has extensively used a flight simulator - and is strong with the Force?

If Rey is a Mary Sue, then Anakin and Luke are absolutely, 100% the same.

 

I wasn't arguing with you, merely quoting movies.

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4 hours ago, Mefyrx said:

as ive told, im not pursuing talk over here as i know everything i need to say to counter every argument that have been directed at me thus far here.....it will all end like one said that it is every person's  opinion and that regardless of your degree of education ...all opinion are equals...

so to me, the new trilogy is pure garbage even though i didnt need to see the second one but just had to read and listen to those who did enought to know that i dont want to see that....

anyway, for your understanding of this video...a person who dont know how to pilot doesnt turn into an all pro pilot after 3minutes 50 seconds of experience...

So, what you're saying is we're all wrong and you're right and you could counter all our arguments if you wanted to but you're not gonna because you don't want to.

That really sounds like a mature way to talk about things and not at all what I hear from the 2nd graders I work with...

Also, anakin became an "all pro pilot" after less than that in the prequels. And he was a kid... with no flying experience.
 

 

PS: as a general note, this whole "all opinions are equal" attitude today is complete bull. You are entitled to your opinion. But your opinion is not fact and it doesn't disprove anything in an argument.

Edited by OddballE8

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2 hours ago, the mercenary said:

 

I wasn't arguing with you, merely quoting movies.

Sorry, I realise the way I quoted you it looked like I was directing my comment at you. I was more following along with what you were saying, with regard to Rey having said she was a pilot but never been off-world, and I was adding that in the novelisation she'd been using a flight simulator. Then I was adding the "Rey isn't a Mary Sue" bit as a general observation, not anything to do with you in particular.

My bad, though - apologies.

Edited by Daronil

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4 hours ago, Daronil said:

I think people are also vastly underestimating the effect the Force had with Rey's piloting. Anakin had never flown a ship before surviving a dogfight, flying into a Trade Federation mothership and blowing it up before escaping back out - because he was strong with the Force. Luke had flown a T-16 Skyhopper, but had never flown anything in space, and certainly not in combat, before shooting down several enemy fighters and then blowing up a Death Star, because he was strong in the Force. 

But suddenly, Rey is a "Mary Sue" because she can do a blundering bumpy take-off, zip through a ruined star destroyer, and escape a handful of TIE fighters, when it's established that she has extensively used a flight simulator - and is strong with the Force?

If Rey is a Mary Sue, then Anakin and Luke are absolutely, 100% the same.

And that's exactly it.  Rey doesn't do anything Luke and Anakin didn't do in the OT.  The only difference is we see her learn these things onscreen, which actually can be a valid argument, except we really don't know how long Jedi training actually take.  ESB leaves it very vague exactly how long Luke spent on Dagobah with Yoda, could have been days or months (or, there's a crack theory about the Falcon making it to Bespin at near-relativistic speeds, causing time dilation and Luke spent years on Dagobah, but that's rather out there for a lot of reasons).  However, while Rey learns things quickly, she doesn't really learn them well. . . she's not as good with a lightsaber as Luke was in ESB, though by TLJ she can hold her own.  She's good, but not the raw, concentrated awesome Luke and especially Anakin were.  Which fits, since the threats are overall less competent than previously.  Anakin was going up against supreme galactic manipulator Palpatine and deadliest lightsaber duelist Dooku, Luke was up against that same galactic manipulator and Anakin himself, heavily injured and impaired by his life support suit, Rey is up against a half-trained Darth Vader wannabe and a self-important Palpatine wannabe.  Her opponents aren't as powerful as Luke and Anakin's, so she doesn't need to be as good as they were to succeed against them.

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14 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

How is "I'm just not enjoying this stuff anymore, so let me pass it on to someone who might get some enjoyment from it" an asinine and insane suggestion?

rif-logo-blue-large.png

14 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Indeed. It makes perfect sense to get rid of all of my Teen Titans comics and merchandise that I’ve enjoyed over the course of some 40 years because I couldn’t stand what they did with the characters in animated and now live action TV series. I mean, what would I be expected to do? Still enjoy what I enjoyed while just not watching the shows I didn’t? What an equally asinine and insane suggestion.

 

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5 hours ago, Daronil said:

Sorry, I realise the way I quoted you it looked like I was directing my comment at you. I was more following along with what you were saying, with regard to Rey having said she was a pilot but never been off-world, and I was adding that in the novelisation she'd been using a flight simulator. Then I was adding the "Rey isn't a Mary Sue" bit as a general observation, not anything to do with you in particular.

My bad, though - apologies.

 

No worries, sometimes I misinterpret things.

 

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12 hours ago, Mefyrx said:

as ive told, im not pursuing talk over here as i know everything i need to say to counter every argument that have been directed at me thus far here.....it will all end like one said that it is every person's  opinion and that regardless of your degree of education ...all opinion are equals...

so to me, the new trilogy is pure garbage even though i didnt need to see the second one but just had to read and listen to those who did enought to know that i dont want to see that....

anyway, for your understanding of this video...a person who dont know how to pilot doesnt turn into an all pro pilot after 3minutes 50 seconds of experience...

 

10 hours ago, Ebak said:

I get that, we’ll just keep going around and around, it is pointless. As Daronil said, it’s more that we take exception to being insulted for our views.

Also, Disney. I demand a full backstory into how Obi Wan outflow Jango Fett in the Ep 2! There is no prior mention of him being an ace pilot and yet he can outlay a notorious bounty hunter.

The whole premise that she is better than Han is ridiculous. She’s good and clearly she knows enough to have some tricks or good instincts...but why can’t she just be a decent pilot?

 

10 hours ago, the mercenary said:

To be fair, she *did* say she knew how to pilot, but she'd never been off the planet before. 

 

And Han, as we all know, successfully navigated an asteroid field. The odds of which are 3720 to 1.

 

9 hours ago, Daronil said:

I think people are also vastly underestimating the effect the Force had with Rey's piloting. Anakin had never flown a ship before surviving a dogfight, flying into a Trade Federation mothership and blowing it up before escaping back out - because he was strong with the Force. Luke had flown a T-16 Skyhopper, but had never flown anything in space, and certainly not in combat, before shooting down several enemy fighters and then blowing up a Death Star, because he was strong in the Force. 

But suddenly, Rey is a "Mary Sue" because she can do a blundering bumpy take-off, zip through a ruined star destroyer, and escape a handful of TIE fighters, when it's established that she has extensively used a flight simulator - and is strong with the Force?

If Rey is a Mary Sue, then Anakin and Luke are absolutely, 100% the same.

@Daronil and @the mercenary are correct here. It has been confirmed canonically that Rey has extensive training in a simulator she had previously rebuilt, and she did specifically tell Finn that she knew how to pilot before they boarded the Millennium Falcon. So asserting that she somehow “went from not knowing how to fly to being better than Han” is totally false.

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OddBall8E:
If you would have read correctly, I've said that I could counter all the arguments that have been directed at me thus far... meaning people have quoted me, I've seen what they've said, and I know exactly what to say to counter those arguments

To be clear, because some people have to tend to see their way, we're therefor not talking about unknown arguments but known argument which lead to dismissing your comment about second grader which is bias
I've chosen not to answer because of the reason I've stated...

Anakin did not "all pro pilot" in the sequel
He had some known experience about piloting pod race because it is said so prior to the race
He shown his podrace piloting skill

Now for the space fight that you're talking about.....Half of the time we saw him within the starfighter, he was on auto-pilot which doesn't require any skill at all beside pressing the gunnery button
The other half was shown as "Sheer dumb luck" (like professor Mcgonagall would say) getting into the hanger....this wasn't "piloting skill"
This is why you carefully chose how the action unfolds....this is why you need people that knows to construct a movie

Tramp Graphics:
This is a figure of speech, and this should be implied and understood that way.  This is cutting the corner on something that isn't relevant to quantify but use as a representation.
So moving within the Star Destroyer (like Han going through the Death Star) and then suddenly backflipping upon the exit after showing having a hard time just controlling the **** ship is the equivalent of saying that you've never driven a car but did do so in some simulator, this is your first time getting into a car, having a hard time switching gear with the clutch but being able to 180 degree turn (like fast and furious 2 pink strip race)
The sheer dumb luck has been used on finding the ship ready to take off because that should have never happened at the first place

Anyway, there are issues every 5 minutes within the movie.... (figure of speech to be clear)

Nice thing about Mary Poppin, my friend said the exact same description....I think you've said that earlier.... well the fact that she had the Force was up for discussion (Darth Vader saying so doesn't mean she did, it was a deception for Anakin to give in to his anger)  as well as the fact that she didn't instantly died

Daronil:
Right back at you, nobody care what you have to say about those movies.... *ironic*

Dully noted, you would rather not have me say that I find people .. …. ..  …. for liking the new trilogy... but I felt like sharing my though at the time...not like if its going to change my mind though

This is a post about a guy that's selling his star wars components because he found the movies so poorly made that he felt he had to do so and I am here expressing the same hate that he has toward those movies.
So if you don't like the discussion about that...well you're free to leave this thread.

So no I haven't seen TLJ and never will... of course I don't know the exact time line but I know some of the stuff that happens and I don't want to see that.  After all, my comments about TFA was also argued by my friend who did not see this as a great movie but just as a sweet movie with giving good memories (like he likes to see those movies with Arnold, Stalone and all these other action movie actors that act as a cliché)....after seeing TLJ, he no longer has the SW spirit...yeah sure he watch the movies but without any excitement anymore...and that says it all to me... of course it is redeemable, each movies are a possibility for redemption... but until proven so, I'm not going to see their movies and I hope enough people do so to force their hand into rethinking their stories before presenting them to the public...….

So I'm out, I've said I was leaving this chat but so far, some people kept quoting me feeling I have to explain stuff so they clearly understand what I was saying...

Edited by Mefyrx

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Quote

Anakin did not "all pro pilot" in the sequel


He had some known experience about piloting pod race because it is said so prior to the race
He shown his podrace piloting skill

Half of the time we saw him within the starfighter, he was on auto-pilot which doesn't require any skill at all beside pressing the gunnery button
The other half was shown as "Sheer dumb luck" (like professor Mcgonagall would say) getting into the hanger....this wasn't "piloting skill"
This is why you carefully chose how the action unfolds....this is why you need people that knows to construct a movie

I'm sorry, what? This is the kid that's the vergence in the Force and you're attributing his skill to "sheer dumb luck", as opposed to "using the Force"?

"Let's try spinning, that's a good trick" - not on autopilot. Getting into the hangar was not on autopilot, and as Obi-Wan says, "there's not such thing as luck" in the SW universe. Anakin most certainly used the Force in both his pod-racing ("He can see things before they happen, it's why he seems to have such quick reflexes") and his starfighter piloting (which he'd never done). 

 

 
Nice thing about Mary Poppin, my friend said the exact same description....I think you've said that earlier.... well the fact that she had the Force was up for discussion (Darth Vader saying so doesn't mean she did, it was a deception for Anakin to give in to his anger)  as well as the fact that she didn't instantly died

 

Huh? Darth Vader is Anakin. 

Luke was the one who said "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it. My sister has it."

Seriously dude, I think we're all starting to wonder if TLJ is the only SW movie you haven't actually watched. 

Read the novelisation of RotJ - Leia was calling on the Force when she choked Jabba. 

 

 
This is a post about a guy that's selling his star wars components because he found the movies so poorly made that he felt he had to do so and I am here expressing the same hate that he has toward those movies.
So if you don't like the discussion about that...well you're free to leave this thread.



As has been said by myself and many others - hate the movies all you like. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that you hate TLJ. My daughter hates it, too. 

But she doesn't turn around and tell me that I have "low standards" because I disagree with her. 

 

 
So no I haven't seen TLJ and never will

 

So you're happy saying "I've never seen this movie but a bunch of friends saw it and thought it sucked so it must suck and therefore I hate it and will never watch and anyone who likes it has low standards."

Wow. Just...wow. Pretty astonishing level of hubris there, Sparky...

Edited by Daronil

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But his sister hasn't shown the Force yet at the time, nor train or knew what to do with it.... but maybe she does, doesn't matter....never heard of shield from hyperspace freezing temperature...etc

Like I said before, after listening to my friends comments, It therefor lead me to read about the spoilers alert etc etc...

This is what you have to do these days....not like you could ask for a refund going out of the theater....not that I can't pay for my ticket....its more I do not want to give my money to Disney for giving me garbage in return

You refer as Anakin before him joining the Emperor and to Darth Vader after

Edited by Mefyrx

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18 minutes ago, Mefyrx said:

OddBall8E:
If you would have read correctly, I've said that I could counter all the arguments that have been directed at me thus far... meaning people have quoted me, I've seen what they've said, and I know exactly what to say to counter those arguments

To be clear, because some people have to tend to see their way, we're therefor not talking about unknown arguments but known argument which lead to dismissing your comment about second grader which is bias
I've chosen not to answer because of the reason I've stated...

Anakin did not "all pro pilot" in the sequel
He had some known experience about piloting pod race because it is said so prior to the race
He shown his podrace piloting skill

Half of the time we saw him within the starfighter, he was on auto-pilot which doesn't require any skill at all beside pressing the gunnery button
The other half was shown as "Sheer dumb luck" (like professor Mcgonagall would say) getting into the hanger....this wasn't "piloting skill"
This is why you carefully chose how the action unfolds....this is why you need people that knows to construct a movie

Tramp Graphics:
This is a figure of speech, and this should be implied and understood that way.  This is cutting the corner on something that isn't relevant to quantify but use as a representation.
So moving within the Star Destroyer (like Han going through the Death Star) and then suddenly backflipping upon the exit after showing having a hard time just controlling the **** ship is the equivalent of saying that you've never driven a car but did do so in some simulator, this is your first time getting into a car, having a hard time switching gear with the clutch but being able to 180 degree turn 
The sheer dumb luck has been used on finding the ship ready to take off because that should have never happened at the first place

Anyway, there are issues every 5 minutes within the movie.... 

Nice thing about Mary Poppin, my friend said the exact same description....I think you've said that earlier.... well the fact that she had the Force was up for discussion (Darth Vader saying so doesn't mean she did, it was a deception for Anakin to give in to his anger)  as well as the fact that she didn't instantly died

Daronil:
Right back at you, nobody care what you have to say

Dully noted, you would rather not have me say that I find people …. for liking the new trilogy... but I felt like sharing my though at the time...not like if its going to change my mind though

This is a post about a guy that's selling his star wars components because he found the movies so poorly made that he felt he had to do so and I am here expressing the same hate that he has toward those movies.
So if you don't like the discussion about that...well you're free to leave this thread.

So no I haven't seen TLJ and never will... of course I don't know the exact time line but I know some of the stuff that happens and I don't want to see that.  After all, my comments about TFA was also argued by my friend who did not see this as a great movie but just as a sweet movie with giving good memories (like he likes to see those movies with Arnold, Stalone and all these other action movie actors that act as a cliché)....after seeing TLJ, he no longer has the SW spirit...yeah sure he watch the movies but without any excitement anymore...and that says it all to me... of course it is redeemable, each movies are a possibility for redemption... but until proven so, I'm not going to see their movies and I hope enough people do so to force their hand into rethinking their stories before presenting them to the public...….

So I'm out, I've said I was leaving this chat but so far, some people kept quoting me feeling I have to explain stuff so they clearly understand what I was saying...

You do realize that the vast majority of flight training by real pilots is done in simulators, not real aircraft, don’t you? I’m talking thousands of hours here before a pilot ever sets foot in an actual aircraft. 

Secondy, it wasn’t Vader who said Leia was strong in the Force. It was Ben and Yoda. Leia was the “other Hope” Yoda and Ben refer to in ESB, and RotJ. And Luke tells Leia himself that she too is strong in the Force because the Force runs strong in their family. Not only that but even in ESB, she actually demonstrated Force ability by sensing Luke through the Force.

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Darth Vader did so prior to the last encounter with the Emperor

But for Yoda, I'll give it to you, bin a while about that

Edited by Mefyrx

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1 minute ago, Mefyrx said:

Like I said before, after listening to my friends comments, It therefor lead me to read about the spoilers alert etc etc...

This is what you have to do these days....not like you could ask for a refund going out of the theater....

Which are also simply other people’s opinions and their descriptions are colored by their viewpoint. In other words those “spoilers reviews” are subjective and biased by personal opinions

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1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Vader never told Luke that Leia was strong in the Force. He didn’t even know Luke had a sister yet.

Gimme a minute i'll get you the time stamp

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1 minute ago, Mefyrx said:

Gimme a minute i'll get you the time stamp

Don’t try to tell me that you consider the scene under the staircase as a different “encounter” from the rest of the confrontation in the Emperor’s throne room. It’s not. From the time when Vader takes Luke in front of Palpatine until he hurls Palpatine down the reactor shaft is all one encounter. Before that, he and Luke were on Endor, and he talked about Luke’s skills being complete, and at that time he had yet to know Luke had a sister. 

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