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Cubanboy

Happy Friday - How to Fix the E-Wing

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I think there are few ships that will be fixable by finding a thematic slot  to add.

That said, it would be reasonable to give the E-Wing a [tech] slot, and being one of the most powerful slots this might help fix the ship.  If nothing else, it would help further differentiate the E-Wing from the rest of the Rebel line-up.

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I figured they'd get a price drop and when the cards become available they also the tech slot on it. I feel like that was one of the very smart and clever reasons they put upgrade bars in the app. Not so that they could remove options like that had to work jumpiness though if the need was there they certainly could, but more so that as the game expanded they could add new upgrade types onto older content. Like IG-88 could get Tactical Relay slot depending on how that works. If they ever come up with an 'armor' upgrade type they could put that on appropriate ships retroactively. But I thought the plan may have always been to demo that to us consumers by dropping tech into E-wings first when NT stuff drops. 

But they still need a price drop. Bad.

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2 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I feel like a LOT of the ships have been over costed intentionally to push returning players to using the Wave 1 ships and as more waves come out, the more price changes we'll see for the sake of balance.

Tell that to the people on the receiving end of TIE/SAs and TIE/CAs... Neither of those are Wave 1.

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Just now, Kehl_Aecea said:

I feel like a LOT of the ships have been over costed intentionally to push returning players to using the Wave 1 ships and as more waves come out, the more price changes we'll see for the sake of balance.


That, or FFG is no better at balancing the game than they were in 2.0.  I mean, it's not like Rebel Y-Wings are doing well... they are one of the worst performing ships according to the tourney data.  Meanwhile, TIE Phantoms, TIE Punishers, and the HWK are some of the most powerful ships in the game right now.

I think it's less about FFG using conservative costing approaches to drive people to use the better priced Wave 1 stuff, and more about just FFG basically still floundering around trying to get a handle of balancing X-Wing.

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It's going to be interesting to see the costs of the T-70 and the Delta-7B, both of which are closer to the E than the X is. If they end up at, say, 47 and 55 respectively, it would be absurd to leave the E-Wing at 61.

I don't really buy the "three modded torpedoes" argument. Sure, three 55 point Knaves could technically launch that and destroy a fighter and a half, but these are still I2 ships, which can be arc-dodged, destroyed or at the very least de-focused. Wedge, Luke and Dutch, all with protorps AND talents and mechs, would still be cheaper than the Knaves, and would absolutely destroy them.

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4 hours ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I feel like a LOT of the ships have been over costed intentionally to push returning players to using the Wave 1 ships and as more waves come out, the more price changes we'll see for the sake of balance.

Maybe not wave one in particular, but yeah pretty much everything that saw much play in 1e was priced a touch higher (with the exception of the HWK because that was always overcosted—but they made up for that by reworking the guns and title anyways). 

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1 hour ago, Swedge said:

you cant without changing the card text besides making it cheaper... Coran should have force powers...just saying...Also force power pilots should have EPTs as well...

Kyle Katarn should also have force powers unless its during his fallow period between Jedi Knight and Jedi Outcast.

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Happy Friday, CB!  Happy Friday all you beautiful forum peeps!

So yeah, the E-Wing.  I want to love it, as it's as close as the Rebels get to my lovely, beautiful, deadly Murderflies...StarVipers.  I mean StarVipers.  But yeah.  E-Wings need a significant points decrease.  Eight to ten points across the board.  But I also feel that Proton Torps should be at least three to six points more expensive.  So.  Maybe if the E-Wing had been given a Weapons Hardpoint, a la the Scyk and the T70?  That feels more thematic: expensive, customized, capable.

Edited by Kleeg005
typing is hard

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1 hour ago, Kleeg005 said:

But I also feel that Proton Torps should be at least three to six points more expensive.

12 hours ago, Hugeman said:

If protorps go up to where they should be (12pts) then a price drop to 55 would be fine.

Why do so many people seem to think proton torpedoes are undercosted? It's an argument I've seen elsewhere too and I don't get it.

The only people using torps at the moment are Rebels and Redline. 

Rebels because their list building options and suck and 18-27 points worth of torpedoes is worth more than any additional ship they can fit into that point range. Getting three ships to four attack dice is easier and more effective than any Rebel exclusive crew or upgrades as well. It's not like the Imperials, who have *very* effective crew options like Vader or Sloane who fit into that gap while being cheaper and better in the right lists than torps. 

Redline because of his insane ability, low cost as a pilot and more obvious synergy with lock based ordnance than Barrage Rocket loving Deathrain or Jonus bombers.

What lists are you seeing that are oversaturated with torps because they're too cheap?

If you raise the cost of torps, Rebels lose one of the few things working for them at the moment, and you can say goodbye to ships like the Gunboat. 

You can drop Knave E-Wings by 3 points before 3 torp Knaves becomes a thing. That's an acceptable starting point to help get them on the board, IMO. Corran can drop 7 points before Corran + 2 Knaves with at least 2 torps is a thing.

Those are the minimum cost reductions I expect to see.  

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22 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

I think a tech slot is something cool and flavorful, kind of like how Tugs get tech slots making them fairly unique. The only problem I can foresee is the sudden outcry of "CAN NO PLAY REBEL WITHOUT BUYING RESISTANCE BOX, FFG FULL OF LIESSSSSS!!!!" 

Ya, some people lack patience. When they are confronted with choice of paying extra for something before it is made available within their chosen faction or waiting patiently those people choose option 3. Whining and threatening on the forums.

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2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

You can drop Knave E-Wings by 3 points before 3 torp Knaves becomes a thing. That's an acceptable starting point to help get them on the board, IMO. Corran can drop 7 points before Corran + 2 Knaves with at least 2 torps is a thing.

Those are the minimum cost reductions I expect to see.  

3x Torp Knaves should have been a 'thing' from release, considering you can get 4x Torp X-Wings in a list already.

As has been pointed out, you can get 3x high IN X-Wing Aces with Torps in a list, so E-Wings need a substantial price drop to incentivise their use.

10 points seems reasonable, to give you 3x Knave with FCS, R3 and Torps...

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9 minutes ago, DexterOnone said:

3x Torp Knaves should have been a 'thing' from release, considering you can get 4x Torp X-Wings in a list already.

As has been pointed out, you can get 3x high IN X-Wing Aces with Torps in a list, so E-Wings need a substantial price drop to incentivise their use.

10 points seems reasonable, to give you 3x Knave with FCS, R3 and Torps...

/sigh. E-Wing vs X-Wing, both with Torps: X-Wing; first few turns maneuver to get to lock range. Lock when in range. E-Wing; First turn lock target, next few turns dance locks around to keep opponent guessing till turn before engagement, when on first combat pass Focus to have double mod on torps or Evade if you're not shooting first and don't trust your dice to pop focus results for Offensive and Defensive mods in same pass... A bit of a difference there mate. Quite a bit.

Edited by Hiemfire

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3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

A bit of a difference there mate. Quite a bit.

Yes, there is quite a bit of a difference... the I5/6 X-Wings will have a much better chance of actually getting their Torp shot off than the I2 E-Wings!

The E-Wings are a 'one-trick pony' that will have to be flown skilfully to pull off their Torp shot, while the X-Wings offer the flexibility to keep the opposition guessing.

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3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

/sigh. E-Wing vs X-Wing, both with Torps: X-Wing; first few turns maneuver to get to lock range. Lock when in range. E-Wing; First turn lock target, next few turns dance locks around to keep opponent guessing till turn before engagement, when on first combat pass Focus to have double mod on torps or Evade if you're not shooting first and don't trust your dice to pop focus results for Offensive and Defensive mods in same pass... A bit of a difference there mate. Quite a bit.

You're assuming that only the E-Wings will have locks. With decent range management you can definitely either a) get that lock and a shot, b) get into range 1 where torpedoes are irrelevant, or c) zoom past and lock anyway. And that's only if the E-Wings move last. If the X-Wings move last, they'll definitely get the locks, and in that case they'll simply crush the E-Wings.

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I'd suggest switching the torpedo slot to a missile slot. Sure they don't pack as big a whallop as Proton Torps, but there's variety in both the price and function of the missiles vs what we get in torpedos.

Also, I'm more conservative on the price drop of the ship. I'd reduce each pilot's cost by 4 except for Corran. He's too much at 74 base, currently. I'd bring him down to 66 points.

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4 minutes ago, Okapi said:

You're assuming that only the E-Wings will have locks. With decent range management you can definitely either a) get that lock and a shot, b) get into range 1 where torpedoes are irrelevant, or c) zoom past and lock anyway. And that's only if the E-Wings move last. If the X-Wings move last, they'll definitely get the locks, and in that case they'll simply crush the E-Wings.

It was a capability comparison not a slug fest matchup.

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12 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I think there are few ships that will be fixable by finding a thematic slot  to add.

Title Cards:

E-Wing Type A (underpowered guns) - Reduce your attack to 2, and reduced point cost.

E-Wing Type B (fixes the Type A's underpowered guns by deliberately overloading them) -  Attack is 3, but every time you make a primary attack roll 1 red die. On a Hit apply a disarm token for the next round. On a Crit suffer one point of hull damage (because one of your guns just blew up in your face). Also reduces the point cost (optional: Reduce firepower by one for the duration of the game. Y'know, because one of your guns just exploded).

And that's from the Lore, baby.

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

It was a capability comparison not a slug fest matchup.

True, but a ships worth is dependent on how it compares to other ships. There's no denying the E-Wing ship ability is strong, or whether fully modded torps are powerful. The question is how much it is worth. It has been put forward to here that it cannot be priced all that much lower because three fully modded Proton Torpedoes, even on I2 ships, would somehow be too much. I disagree, partly because there are lots and lots of lists that would walk all over three Knaves with Protons, even lists aren't considered top tier.

Also, four Proton Scimitars and Jendon is a thing. Also fully modded, same initiative, an extra shot, and throw in three reds and a focus at I3 from Jendon as well.

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