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The Last Owlbear

Destroyed Timing vs On-Board Effects

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What is the timing involving a(n) creature(s) becoming destroyed and then being put into their discard pile(s)? A question came up involving a board with the creature Tolas, who has the ability "Each time a creature is destroyed, its opponent gains 1 aember" when a "Destroy each creature" action was played. Does Tolas trigger for each creature that is being destroyed, then creatures are put into the discard pile(s)? Or does the active player determine the order in which creatures are considered destroyed and then immediately put into their discard pile (possibly causing Tolas to only trigger once for himself, if that's how the active player orders it)?

I also wanted to clarify that the active player determines the order in which creatures are placed into their discard piles?

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I believe the active player would choose what order the triggers occur in.

Page 7:

CARD ABILITIES When resolving a card ability, resolve as much of the ability as can be resolved, and ignore the rest. Unless otherwise specified by the ability, the active player makes all decisions while resolving an ability.

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Just now, WonderWAAAGH said:

I'm kind of confused about the design process for Keyforge. If the good Dr. Garfield can borrow cards wholesale from Magic *cough*Aggravated Assault* , then why not bring the stack along with it?

No interrupts

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The stack is just a simple order of operations, being able to interrupt the process really has nothing to do with it. The absence of a FIFO or LIFO system is just head-scratching at this point, given FFG's ongoing experiment with competitive card-gaming and the inclusion of Garfield's vast experience.  

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I suppose in this instance there's no need, because RAW the active player gets to choose. I feel like that's just a placeholder rule until they can expand on the timing sequence, because it's patently unfair to have no control over your own abilities during your opponent's turn. There's definitely still a need for better timing rules, since you can look around this very forum and see completely unresolvable issues. In many cases the text is just ambiguous.    

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3 minutes ago, Krashwire said:

Since the opposing player cannot interject in the stack there is no need for the stack. You look at all of the abilities/triggers currently occurring and as the active player you execute them in the order you wish.

Right, in most cases the way triggers interact are pretty self explanatory. My concern is whether effects are actually happening at the same time. For instance, if there are two triggers, one that says "When a creature becomes exhausted" and another which is "Reap:" or "When a creature reaps" are these happening at the same time? Or is it Step 1: Creature becomes exhausted then Step 2: the creature reaps?

It's the same issue with Destroyed and a creature going to the discard pile. When a "Destroy each creature" action is played, is the correct sequence Step 1: active player chooses a creature, Step 2: that creature is destroyed (trigger effects), Step 3: that creature is placed on top of their discard pile, Step 4: active player chooses another creature (repeat)? Or is the correct sequence Step 1: all creatures are considered destroyed (effects trigger, active player chooses order of resolution, but all creatures see all other creatures being destroyed) Step 2: active player chooses the order creatures are put into their discard piles?

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That's a fair question... and one that would be easily resolved by the stack. I'm somewhat beyond trying to force Magic logic onto FFG's misfit enterprises, but I sense that OP's question is more practically worded as such:

Can you choose Tolas to be destroyed first, thus negating its aember gaining effect, or does everything trigger simultaneously and aember is gained regardless of when something goes to the discard pile? 

I assume the latter, but the rules don't even account for triggers, let alone a system for managing them. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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46 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

That's not how triggers traditionally work, though. Hence the confusion.

That’s how it works though, why would we assume each creature is destroyed one at a time when they’re all destroyed instead of just following the effect as written that they’re just all destroyed. The RAW is simply that we have two effects, one effect requires a creature to be destroyed to trigger the other destroys all creatures simultaneously and since the creature that would generate amber requires the latter but is destroyed with every other creature it’s effect would never trigger. Seems pretty straight forwards.

Edited by TwitchyBait

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Because we don't know how the effects flow from trigger to resolution. 

Let's assume there's a Tolas in play and 3 other creatures. There are two different ways that those effects could potentially trigger:

Card 1: Trigger -> Resolve. Card 2: Trigger -> Resolve. Card 3: Trigger -> Resolve. Card 4: Trigger -> Resolve. 

This is resolving each effect one at a time, with separate, non-simultaneous triggers. In this instance eliminating Tolas first would prevent the aember gaining ability.

Alternatively:

Card 1, 2, 3, and 4 trigger simultaneously (all cards are destroyed at the same time). Then:

Card 1: Resolve. Card 2: Resolve. Card 3: Resolve. Card 4: Resolve.

---

In both cases the active player can determine which order the effects resolve in, but only in the first one can he prevent aember from being gained. In the second case it wouldn't matter when Tolas is destroyed, because all of the trigger conditions have already been met (cards being destroyed).   

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Talos has to survive to see those creatures die and gain a player an aember. If Talos dies at the same time as all other creatures it won’t see that their destroyed because its not in play to see it happen. Talos doesn’t give anyone an aember when he dies. All creatures dying at the same time doesn’t change that.

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7 minutes ago, Hyperjayman said:

If Talos dies at the same time as all other creatures it won’t see that their destroyed because its not in play to see it happen. 

We don't have any rules text to support that. Remember, a creature doesn't necessarily have to be in play for its trigger to have an impact on the game. I would also argue that Tolas does indeed give its opponent an aember, especially since it doesn't specify "another creature."

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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I'd say this works the way Krump does, If Krump and the opposing creature both die, Krump's ability doesn't happen. That means there is a precedent for on board effects not seeing things that happen as they die.
Note that Krump isn't a fight keyword, so it doesn't explicitly have the same "must survive" clause that others do, yet still works that way.

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@WonderWAAAGH I get the feeling that we're both pretty entrenched MTG players based on the answers that I'm seeing you give. Based on that I think we need to look at this as Magic rules at Alpha, not Magic rules at Guild of Ravnica. 

Based on RAW I see this playing out in one of three ways:

  1.  Tolas and all creatures die simultaneously,  and each player gets Aember equal to the amount of creatures that their opponent controlled as Tolas sees all creatures(including itself) die together. 
  2.  All creatures die and no one gets any Aember as Tolas didn't see any creatures die, as Tolas doesn't see itself die.
  3.  All creatures die, Tolas' owners' opponent gets one Aember as Tolas see's itself die, but none of the other creatures.

I'd argue that 2 doesn't work because afaik Tolas' owners' opponent would receive an Aember when it dies.

 

So what do we have in RAW to help us here:
 

Quote

CARD ABILITIES When resolving a card ability, resolve as much of the ability as can be resolved, and ignore the rest. Unless otherwise specified by the ability, the active player makes all decisions while resolving an ability. For details on specific terminology that can be found in card ability text, see the Glossary. 

Quote

CONSTANT ABILITIES If a card has an ability that does not have a boldfaced precursor, the ability is a constant ability that is active so long as the card remains in play and meets all conditions specified by the ability. Constant abilities on a card are active even while that card is exhausted. Applying the effects of a constant ability is not considered using a card and therefore does not cause the card to exhaust.

Quote

DESTROYED When a card is destroyed, it is placed in its owner’s discard pile. If a card has a “Destroyed:” ability, the effect resolves automatically when the card is destroyed, immediately before it leaves play.

Quote

DISCARD PILE When a card is destroyed or discarded, it is placed on top of its owner’s discard pile. The cards in each player’s discard pile are open information, and may be referenced at any time. The order of cards in a player’s discard pile is maintained during play, unless a card ability causes this order to change. When a player runs out of cards in their deck, they shuffle their discard pile to create a new deck.

Now the only time that we have any reference to constant abilities and a creature surviving is in the FIGHT portion of the glossary:

Quote

If either creature in a fight has a constant ability referencing the end of the fight (example: “after an enemy creature is destroyed fighting this creature…”), the creature must survive the fight to resolve the ability

 

 

Based on this the only time we have any evidence of a static ability caring about the creature timing is in the Fight portion. This isn't referencing the Fight so I would guess that 1 is the case here because if Tolas see's iteslf die, it will see all creatures die.

IF Tolas doesn't see itself die, then I think that 2 is the correct outcome.

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1 minute ago, Dave Cordeiro said:

I'd say this works the way Krump does, If Krump and the opposing creature both die, Krump's ability doesn't happen. That means there is a precedent for on board effects not seeing things that happen as they die.
Note that Krump isn't a fight keyword, so it doesn't explicitly have the same "must survive" clause that others do, yet still works that way.

The same is true for Stealer of Souls purging a destroyed creature it fought and gaining an aember. If Stealer of Souls dies with the creature it fought, the purging and aember gain don’t happen because Stealer of Souls isn’t in play to  see it happened. Only ‘Destroyed’ abilities apply a timeing window for the effect to trigger.

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I've been down this rabbit hole a few times with other FFG games. The only thing that's obvious at this point is that they're missing a rules reference guide, which sometimes accompanies aforesaid games. I'm sure we'll get one sooner rather than later, since we've still only had a soft launch for Keyforge and the date of publication for the current rule book goes back to August.

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1 hour ago, Ellimist1 said:

@Hyperjayman Again that's specific to fight, which is the only place in the RAW that we see anything about constant abilities on creatures and timing.

It doesn’t matter. Only creatures with a ‘Destroyed’ ability trigger before they go to the discard pile.

Cards with constant abilities only work when their in play.

Talos constant ability doesn’t give any aember when its in a hand, discard pile or library. And since it doesn’t have a ‘Destroyed’ ability it doesn’t give your opponent an aember when they destroy it.

Ergo when Talos is in play and a card it played that says ‘Destroy each creature.’ each creature with a ‘Destroyed’ ability is triggered and resolved, then all creatures are put into their owners discard pile....At The Same Time. No one get anything from Talos because its in a discard pile....Where Its Constant Ability Doesn’t Work.

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9 hours ago, The Last Owlbear said:

Right, in most cases the way triggers interact are pretty self explanatory. My concern is whether effects are actually happening at the same time. For instance, if there are two triggers, one that says "When a creature becomes exhausted" and another which is "Reap:" or "When a creature reaps" are these happening at the same time? Or is it Step 1: Creature becomes exhausted then Step 2: the creature reaps?

It's the same issue with Destroyed and a creature going to the discard pile. When a "Destroy each creature" action is played, is the correct sequence Step 1: active player chooses a creature, Step 2: that creature is destroyed (trigger effects), Step 3: that creature is placed on top of their discard pile, Step 4: active player chooses another creature (repeat)? Or is the correct sequence Step 1: all creatures are considered destroyed (effects trigger, active player chooses order of resolution, but all creatures see all other creatures being destroyed) Step 2: active player chooses the order creatures are put into their discard piles?

No they are not simultaneous, per the Rules document:

When a player uses a creature to reap, the player exhausts the creature, gains 1 Æmber for their Æmber pool, and then all “Reap:” abilities on the creature resolve.

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The real crux to this question is does Tolas see itslef die? I've sent in an email asking for clarification on this. If Tolas does see himself die, then it should see everything die at once.

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15 hours ago, Hyperjayman said:

Cards with constant abilities only work when their in play.

I believe this is the route they went with Destiny, so you may well be right. The problem, as of right now, is that we have no framework rules or definitions for triggers. It also doesn't help that the word 'trigger' is used ambiguously and inconsistently in actual card templating. 

One thing I'd like everyone to bear in mind: when we say 'trigger,' we're actually using the term interchangeably for 3 different concepts.

1. The trigger condition.

2. The trigger effect.

3. The trigger resolution.

Games handle these separate elements in different ways, but as of right now there are no rules whatsoever for any of them in Keyforge. The closest we have are rules for constant abilities and the active player, both of which have been noted above and neither of which come close to fitting the exact concept of an actual trigger (from beginning to end).

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