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RoockieBoy

More cannons required

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Remember the jamming beam?

No... not that one.

The one from the TIE Fighter game? The one that disabled a targeted ship's weapons. Doesn't do any damage, but hands out weapon disabled tokens (and give THOSE the same restrictions with ion tokens: 1 for small base, 2 for medium, 3 for large). 3 dice cannon, hands out a single weapon disabled token, boom, done.

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29 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

We're talking a lot of "if's" here, but you may be right. I think the Scyk pays a tax for flexibility. I don't mind that, but I do mind if the ship becomes unusable. Cannons have always been my go-to with them, simply because they made up for the 2 dice deficiency. It felt normal at the time but now it feels like cheating. Lol - does that make any sense?

A little, sort of... That flexibility tax really kills it when your looking at it ending up in the same price range as lightly equipped Bombers (all of which get more mileage out of the points thanks to reload) when loaded with ordinance and not quite making what a bare low init TIE Interceptor does when it has a cannon (both cost 34 pts, Ion Cannon Scyk can take 1 more hit and might put some ion tokens on target in addition to the 1 damage, Interceptor can make sure that hit doesn't land and can lay out 3-4 dice worth of damage in on turn). Both drop like flies when focused.

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i suspect that we might get a new cannon whenever they rerelease the Mist Hunter, B-Wing, and release the Tie Brute as all were cannon using ships. As for when that happens *Shrugs*

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

T-70s still have a 3 primary, it is just bullseye dependent for full dice when the S-Foils are closed. With the T-70 action bar and dial I'm questioning if we'll ever see them open their S-Foils.

If a decent cannon comes out likely never, lining up a bullseye arc can be difficult so some people will likely still have the wings open at times.

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6 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

Remember the jamming beam?

No... not that one.

The one from the TIE Fighter game? The one that disabled a targeted ship's weapons. Doesn't do any damage, but hands out weapon disabled tokens (and give THOSE the same restrictions with ion tokens: 1 for small base, 2 for medium, 3 for large). 3 dice cannon, hands out a single weapon disabled token, boom, done.

People are screaming when they have to think about more than one series of moves right now (Gun Runner), how loud do you think they're going to get when their beloved aces start not being able to roll all those pretty red dice... Sounds like fun to me. ?

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Just now, Animewarsdude said:

i suspect that we might get a new cannon whenever they rerelease the Mist Hunter, B-Wing, and release the Tie Brute as all were cannon using ships. As for when that happens *Shrugs*

If a decent cannon comes out likely never, lining up a bullseye arc can be difficult so some people will likely still have the wings open at times.

Closed wing action bar + BB unit... Range 1 isn't hard to get into.

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

People are screaming when they have to think about more than one series of moves right now (Gun Runner), how loud do you think they're going to get when their beloved aces start not being able to roll all those pretty red dice... Sounds like fun to me. ?

I just realized WD tokens clear at the end of the round, so for these to be in ANY WAY effective, they would need a special rule where they clear at the end of the NEXT round OR we use wording such as "at the beginning of the engagement phase, choose one enemy ship in your firing primary firing arc. That ship gains one weapons disabled token. When you attack during this phase, roll one less attack die" (there HAS to be a negative to this otherwise it's too **** powerful... maybe make it action based.... perhaps have it only disable their primary weapons but their secondaries stay functional? I'll need to work shop this...)

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1 minute ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I just realized WD tokens clear at the end of the round, so for these to be in ANY WAY effective, they would need a special rule where they clear at the end of the NEXT round OR we use wording such as "at the beginning of the engagement phase, choose one enemy ship in your firing primary firing arc. That ship gains one weapons disabled token. When you attack during this phase, roll one less attack die" (there HAS to be a negative to this otherwise it's too **** powerful... maybe make it action based.... perhaps have it only disable their primary weapons but their secondaries stay functional? I'll need to work shop this...)

Or have it be useable in the System phase. ? Maybe give a post maneuver free action. ?

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6 hours ago, RoockieBoy said:

After the announcement of Wave 3 I’m not sure any cannons were spoiled. Have I missed anything? I think the cannons we have available now are a little meh, and I miss my Mangler Cannons on the scyks ?

I won't miss Mangler Cannons when the T-70 and Upsilon drop... If they do drop, be prepared to see them expensive and nerfed.

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Just now, Hiemfire said:

or be patient for them to be released with the 2.0 ships that use that upgrade.

if they ever are.  FFG has already broken many of the commitments they made in the 2.0 launch interviews, why are you so certain that this one is different? why are you so certain they'll abandon the sales model thats been so profitable for them?

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4 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

if they ever are.  FFG has already broken many of the commitments they made in the 2.0 launch interviews, why are you so certain that this one is different? why are you so certain they'll abandon the sales model thats been so profitable for them?

The only one's I've seen "broken" have stunk extremely strongly of snowballed rumor. We don't even have Wave 2 released nor its contents fully revealed yet. Give them some time...

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16 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I just realized WD tokens clear at the end of the round, so for these to be in ANY WAY effective, they would need a special rule where they clear at the end of the NEXT round OR we use wording such as "at the beginning of the engagement phase, choose one enemy ship in your firing primary firing arc. That ship gains one weapons disabled token. When you attack during this phase, roll one less attack die" (there HAS to be a negative to this otherwise it's too **** powerful... maybe make it action based.... perhaps have it only disable their primary weapons but their secondaries stay functional? I'll need to work shop this...)

 

14 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Or have it be useable in the System phase. ? Maybe give a post maneuver free action. ?

Now to be a bit more serious, though geesh if I don't want Ace-Wing to be good and dead. I really don't want a System phase cannon that shuts down an opponent. A disarm token dealing cannon could be very useful to force an opponent to think about the matchup from the beginning (namely if they really want second player bad enough for perfect information if it can result in them not being able to capitalize on it), yet also has a huge open door for abuse with T-70s having a hardpoint instead of a missile or torp slot (Poe + disarm cannon supporting a swarm... Makes Mux look tame).

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1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

More missiles... Tie adv, TAP, tie AG, Zs are all pretty useless. 

Would any of those ships be satisfied with the existing missiles at different prices?

Are the frames themselves overcosted?

Do they get better if the current meta staples (Boba, Whisper/Redline) go up in price such that we see fewer of those 3-ship ace archetypes? 

 

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

The only one's I've seen "broken" have stunk extremely strongly of snowballed rumor. We don't even have Wave 2 released nor its contents fully revealed yet. Give them some time...

not enough pilot chits in conversion kits, not enough medium bases, out of faction cards like barrage rockets, etc.   you've posted in threads about this topic a half dozen times, not sure why youre saying you have no knowledge of it

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8 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

not enough pilot chits in conversion kits, not enough medium bases

These two possibly lend towards the belief of them having broken a commitment. Were there enough Chits to field 1 for each provided base. Were there 6 Medium bases in the Rebel kit? 2 in the Imperial? 10 in the Scum? "Barrage Rockets, etc" is a matter of a lack of patience at the moment.

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The other ships... well, they aren't worse from lack of decent missiles.  They're bad because they're overpriced.

  • Aggressor is a TIE Bomber with 1 fewer HP for 2 more points...  Turrets are a neat trick, but the cost of turrets should be in the turret, not the ship with the slot.
  • TAP is essentially an A-Wing, which has been well discussed.
  • TIE Adv x1 already has an amazing built-in "Missile" with Advanced Targeting Computer.  The ship is just too expensive.  It pays X-Wing costs for functionality which isn't close.

Better missiles would just go onto ships which aren't overpriced (TIE Bomber, for example), and these ships would still be bad.  The ship costs themselves need to be fixed; 2 points probably does it, with possible exceptions for specific pilots like Vader.

//

Missile pricing, IMHO, is also a bit off.  Everything but Homing and Barrage should go down 1 point, and Barrage should go up 1 point.  There's no world in which Barrage and Concussion should cost the same amount.

 

4 hours ago, svelok said:

Would any of those ships be satisfied with the existing missiles at different prices?

Are the frames themselves overcosted?

Do they get better if the current meta staples (Boba, Whisper/Redline) go up in price such that we see fewer of those 3-ship ace archetypes? 

 

All 3 chassis are trash (x1 and Agg.) or fair (TAP), so I think a discount needs to be discussed before changing missiles prices too much. That being said I think that @theBitterFig is right about everything being overcosted except Barrage and Homing which are a bit too cheap.

 

The x1 is still the most disappointing re-release ship for 2.0. Honestly they could drop the Tempest down to 28 points and I'd still never fly 6 cause I could never get the locks.

 

Back on topic, I like the idea of having variable costs on cannons but I think right now they are too expensive (along with turrets).

Edited by impspy

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2 hours ago, impspy said:

 

All 3 chassis are trash (x1 and Agg.) or fair (TAP), so I think a discount needs to be discussed before changing missiles prices too much. That being said I think that @theBitterFig is right about everything being overcosted except Barrage and Homing which are a bit too cheap.

 

The x1 is still the most disappointing re-release ship for 2.0. Honestly they could drop the Tempest down to 28 points and I'd still never fly 6 cause I could never get the locks.

 

Back on topic, I like the idea of having variable costs on cannons but I think right now they are too expensive (along with turrets).

TIE Advanced x1 is still a 2/3/3/2 ship, that's a pretty decent defensive statline. At 28 Tempests, yikes, that's probably 6x Storms with FCS.  That's probably an issue.  A few block, the others grab locks, and you've got more beef than you should have in a 6-ship list.  Compare to 5x Alpha Interceptors + Wampa.  That's a 17/18 die list, instead of a 12/18 (with a harder 18), but you'd have 60% more hit points.  That I think would be an issue.

At even just 2 points down, 39 Tempests, they become 5 per list without FCS.  So Kihraxzes who have to work for their 3rd die.  Flown right, they're better than Kihraxzes, but flown wrong and they suck.  Meanwhile, 48 for Maarek Stele--same as Thane Kyrell--just feels right.

//

TAP isn't fair, it's weak.  Green Squadron Pilot A-Wing and Baron of the Empire are essentially the same ship.  Same statline, same Elite/Missile upgrades.  TAP gets a System slot, but A-Wing has (probably) a slightly better way to link actions.  Baron at least needs a cut.  We'll see if generic Inquisitors hold up once the Aethersprite gets here, but I kinda think at least the generics could stand a 2-point cut and not be a problem, maybe even Seventh Sister and The Grand Inquisitor.

//

My back-on-cannons thought:

  • I think a Flechette could work, along the lines of an Ion Cannon, where the first hit does damage, but the second hit does a stress token, if the target isn't stressed.  Even though that essentially caps out at two meaningful results, I think it'd be decent enough.  The price would be same as an Ion Cannon, maybe 1 less.  It opens up a new niche.  I kind of like that cannons are niche.
  • Jamming Beam needed to have Range 3.  That would allow a high-init ship with a Jamming Beam to interfere with enemy Locks before they'd shoot, or allow a low-init helper to strip defensive tokens for the rest of the squad.  Missing Range 3 is a slap in the face.
  • I'm not sure I agree with variable pricing.  I think it'd be more trouble than it's worth.
    • Any variable pricing makes it that much harder to evaluate at a glance the cost or legality of a squad, and that's a drawback.  Not a major one, but it exists.
    • Heavy Laser Cannon definitely shouldn't get it.  Reducing the price on 3-red ships isn't appropriate.
    • With Tractor/Jamming, perhaps, but do B-Wings and 4-LOM and Bossk even use a 1-point tractor beam, at the cost of their primary weapon attack?
    • You couldn't really go the other way, with cannons massively increased in price on 2-dice ships, unless you did the same with Torpedoes and Missiles, otherwise the weapons choices of the Scyk and Starwing won't work properly.
    • The T-70 breaks the whole thing, too.  Paying a lower 3-dice cost for use with closed wings and essentially a 2-dice primary isn't going to work right.
    • Taking 1 point off the cost of all cannons seems fair in general.  Taking a 2nd point off the cost of cannons on 3-dice ships... maybe that's small enough to not cause problems, but probably it doesn't make cannons good on a B-Wing, and free Jamming Beams, weak as they are, mildly worry me.  Fundamentally, I don't believe in free upgrades except Configurations or possibly some titles.
      • But even a 1-point adjustment is one more thing you've got to think about and remember.
  • I'm kind of in the down-with-Mangler mindset.  Mangler is just boring.  On a 3-dice ship, it's a free crit with no other effect, and I just don't like it. Throw it on Bossk to never, ever again care about his pilot ability.  For Bossk alone, you couldn't have variable pricing, and you'd need to have the same 8-10 point cost as the Scyk would need.
    • Even if you get rid of the crit-turn effect (or baked in Marksmanship: crit turn only in bullseye), on a 2-dice ship, it's just a normal, 3 dice ship.  I think just spending points to make the Starwing or the Scyk into "normal" 3-dice ships is so painfully boring, and it erases what makes them unique as ships.
    • I like the thought, the feel, of cannon-based ships being kind of unique.  As is, a 34 point Scyk with an Ion Cannon and a 34 point Alpha Interceptor are, on paper, kind of similar.  Same agility and hull.  Alpha gets better actions and dial; Scyk gets a shield and the Ion Cannon effect as an option, but 3*/3/3/(0 or 1) is pretty similar.
  • I don't want to see TIE/D or similar double-tap effects come back.  That's the kind of 1e power creep I'm glad to have left behind.
Edited by theBitterFig

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7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

allow a low-init helper to strip defensive tokens for the rest of the squad

All of the Squad low Init or just one member? Jam Tokens don't carry over to the next round anymore is why I ask. (They're round so are removed in the end phase).

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm kind of in the down-with-Mangler mindset.  Mangler is just boring.  On a 3-dice ship, it's a free crit with no other effect, and I just don't like it. Throw it on Bossk to never, ever again care about his pilot ability

Bossk wouldn't gain any more benefit out of a Mangler than Serrisu (actually less as you go on to point out, allot less). His ability only affects primary attacks now. Am I missing something you noticed?

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

All of the Squad low Init or just one member? Jam Tokens don't carry over to the next round anymore is why I ask. (They're round so are removed in the end phase).

Bossk wouldn't gain any more benefit out of a Mangler than Serrisu (actually less as you go on to point out, allot less). His ability only affects primary attacks now. Am I missing something you noticed?

Jam: the rest being low-init.  A Starwing jamming for a TIE Swarm, for example, or a mix of tractor/jam scyks, or whatever.  These are pretty 'meh' applications at best, but without range 3, they're non-existent.

Bossk: Not so much missed, since I'm sure I noticed it before, but forgot.  I never found Bossk that interesting.

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16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Jam: the rest being low-init.  A Starwing jamming for a TIE Swarm, for example, or a mix of tractor/jam scyks, or whatever.  These are pretty 'meh' applications at best, but without range 3, they're non-existent.

Bossk: Not so much missed, since I'm sure I noticed it before, but forgot.  I never found Bossk that interesting.

Jam: okay :) It has its uses, but like you I really wish it was range 1-3 or 2-3. At 1-2 it is hard to justify for even 2 points.

Bossk: No big. You'd probably die laughing at how often I forget that R4 astro's improve both Speed 2 and Speed 1 maneuvers. I keep doing a doubletake every time I theory craft with E-Wings and their speed 1s change... /facepalm

:)

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