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Punisher + Defender - Not too much of a snowflake

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The meta for Imperial ships seems to have settled, and none of the builds are really grabbing my attention. I need to be invested in a list to really give it a go.

So I got to thinking; what would hook me in?

A Defender.

Then, what's good at the moment? 

Punishers.

So could they work together?

After a good chat with my friend Phil GC, we arrived at this.

Vessery - Juke, FCS - 95 points

Redline - AS, Proton Torps - 61 points

Pure Sabacc - 44 points

200 points

Two strong ships that synergise. Which left 44 points. There are options here, mainly Inferno TIEs and Strikers. Sabacc would give a bit of bite. But no bid.

 

I'm intrigued by it, and there's enough there for me to give it a go. What I need to figure out is how I'll set up!

Any thoughts? On any of it?

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6 minutes ago, Blademaster72 said:

Looks good but the named defenders want advanced sensors.

The problem I've found with AS is it shutting off Full Throttle, and in turn Juke.

Personally I'd rather go without. The thought of absolutely doubling down with FCS seems almost absurd, and I like absurdity.

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The AdvS Defender question is one I'm asking myself atm.

I've played a whole bunch of games with a pair of them, (if against AI on Fly Casual counts for anything, it shoots up into dozens, easily). They are insane with it, Ryad in particular is utterly ridiculous. I found it combo's far better with Outmanoevre than it does Juke. 

Here's the problem I'm having. AdvS makes them unpredictable, unblockable and if you're conservative, practically unkillable. But you have to pound damage through with such an expensive ship, or you easily end up behind the curve. Which is really the crux of the matter, an entire half of your list can become an ineffectual, barely modified single attack. Time becomes your enemy.

So you have to balance your use of it. The less you use it, the more damage you give and take. That balance is really difficult to get spot on and I've had trouble finding it. It's almost too easy for me to use AdvS as a crutch and find myself chasing the game.

I'm starting to feel that if I use it more than a couple of times in a game, it's too much. Once or twice, in crucial moments, can be clutch. But if that's all you use it, maybe you could've just worked around that clutch point differently.

So right now, AdvS is out for me. In my current list, Rex has Juke and FCS. He just hits things. Really hard. 

I aim to get to grips with his absolute basics, which are very strong, saving the points for his wingmates and working his predictability to their advantage.

I do have points available for AdvS, I'm still tempted to take them, for that insurance/surprise moment, but Afterburners on Echo is more hilarious.....

 

@SDCC, your list looks like an absolute monster to me :)

 

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32 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

The AdvS Defender question is one I'm asking myself atm.

I've played a whole bunch of games with a pair of them, (if against AI on Fly Casual counts for anything, it shoots up into dozens, easily). They are insane with it, Ryad in particular is utterly ridiculous. I found it combo's far better with Outmanoevre than it does Juke. 

Here's the problem I'm having. AdvS makes them unpredictable, unblockable and if you're conservative, practically unkillable. But you have to pound damage through with such an expensive ship, or you easily end up behind the curve. Which is really the crux of the matter, an entire half of your list can become an ineffectual, barely modified single attack. Time becomes your enemy.

So you have to balance your use of it. The less you use it, the more damage you give and take. That balance is really difficult to get spot on and I've had trouble finding it. It's almost too easy for me to use AdvS as a crutch and find myself chasing the game.

I'm starting to feel that if I use it more than a couple of times in a game, it's too much. Once or twice, in crucial moments, can be clutch. But if that's all you use it, maybe you could've just worked around that clutch point differently.

So right now, AdvS is out for me. In my current list, Rex has Juke and FCS. He just hits things. Really hard. 

I aim to get to grips with his absolute basics, which are very strong, saving the points for his wingmates and working his predictability to their advantage.

I do have points available for AdvS, I'm still tempted to take them, for that insurance/surprise moment, but Afterburners on Echo is more hilarious.....

 

@SDCC, your list looks like an absolute monster to me :)

 

Good points @Cuz05

I completely understand that Defenders are predictable in their flight pattern, and anything that can change that up is a good thing.

However, I see the predictability as a good thing, since it can be used to your advantage. Doing a 4K? Of course right? 1 bank! I love catching people out.

I want to use the abilities the ship has to their fullest, and AdvS doesn't make the most of that for me personally. It's far from a bad spend - in fact it's a good one - but it's not for me after a few games with it.

 

I have no idea how it's going to pan out. I've not flown a medium base yet, so the Punisher is an unknown entity. Sabacc is out there too. The only one I'm sure of is Vessery, who was possibly my #1 1.0 ship/pilot.

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Advanced Sensors is certainly nice to have on a Defender, but as has been pointed out, you can still fly 'unpredictably' without it. 

As to Vessery, FCS will not be helpful in the early stages of the game when Redline is handing out target locks like candy.  But once Redline is destroyed (and it WILL happen---he's not super squishy, but still easy enough to kill), Vessery essentially loses his pilot ability, so FCS becomes a good way to hang on to decent offensive output.  For that reason, I think its a good choice in this particular list.

The only real question is the TIE Striker.  Pure Sabaac has the advantage of taking fire away from redline (so the punisher lives longer), but frankly, Sabaac is very fragile and isn't likely to survive concentrated fire.  If you are good at dangling him out as bait to draw the enemy into traps, then I think he's a good choice.  Just keep in mind that against some enemies, that tactic isn't always going to work quite as well as you would like.  If you find Pure Sabaac is not pulling his weight, you can sub in Countdown instead.  He is far more durable, but of course, he won't draw aggro away from Redline and that might end up hurting your overall damage output when thinking in the context of playing the long-game.

So I guess all my rambling amounts to: just play the list as is, and see how it goes ;)

I think its a decent list, but it will take quite a lot of practice to get the most out of it (particularly using Pure Sabaac in an effective manner).

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Instead of a Sentinel what about a Reaper? You can fit a base Reaper in with Tactical Officer. Handing out a coordinate to Vessery to grab a focus so he can spend his actions positioning might be a pretty good idea. The Reaper is certainly fast enough to keep up.

Adv. Sensors is really good on Redline, but I still think Trajectory + Bombs is the way to go. At least until they nerf Trajectory and make it more expensive (which they should).

Edited by Jo Jo

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14 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

Instead of a Sentinel what about a Reaper? You can fit a base Reaper in with Tactical Officer. Handing out a coordinate to Vessery to grab a focus so he can spend his actions positioning might be a pretty good idea. The Reaper is certainly fast enough to keep up.

Adv. Sensors is really good on Redline, but I still think Trajectory + Bombs is the way to go. At least until they nerf Trajectory and make it more expensive (which they should).

I totally agree with your assessment of Trajectory, but the original list should have enough firepower to deal with problematically strong jousting lists.  I think your Reaper suggestion is a good alternative to Sabaac, though (can act as a blocker too---very helpful against barrage rocket bombers).

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A Reaper instead of the Striker is very interesting.  Block, Jam, Coordinate - it's got a lot going on. 3 reds too if the block didn't come off.

Perhaps I need to try both Scarif options in the list and see which sits better.

It's nice to know that the whole idea of Redline and Vessery isn't completely ridiculous!

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I'm glad great minds are thinking a like. I like the synchronisity between the punisher and the defender. I really like aces so I wanted to find a list with high PS but each being a viable threat. In preliminary practicing I've done pretty well with the following:

(84) Rexler Brath
(4) Lone Wolf
(3) Homing Missiles
Points 91

(44) "Redline"
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 53

(52) "Whisper"
(4) Juke
Points 56

Total points: 200

 

Having no bid is annoying and the build on redline isn't ideal. But I believe it's still effective.

LW rexler is quite formidable in the late game and the homing missile gets rid of pesky ships with 1-2 hull left.

I'm amazed in testing how often rexs ability triggers naturally. It's just one of those things.

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4 hours ago, SDCC said:

The meta for Imperial ships seems to have settled, and none of the builds are really grabbing my attention. I need to be invested in a list to really give it a go.

So I got to thinking; what would hook me in?

A Defender.

Then, what's good at the moment? 

Punishers.

So could they work together?

After a good chat with my friend Phil GC, we arrived at this.

Vessery - Juke, FCS - 95 points

Redline - AS, Proton Torps - 61 points

Pure Sabacc - 44 points

200 points

Two strong ships that synergise. Which left 44 points. There are options here, mainly Inferno TIEs and Strikers. Sabacc would give a bit of bite. But no bid.

 

I'm intrigued by it, and there's enough there for me to give it a go. What I need to figure out is how I'll set up!

Any thoughts? On any of it?

Redline will die in two rounds then Vessery loses his ability. Might as well just take Rexlar or Ryad if gonna be using FCS after two rounds. Sabaac is cool, but a reaper with Krennic is probably a better option for the list. Lose AdvSensors and you can afford Vermeil

Colonel Vessery (88)
Juke (4)

“Redline” (44)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

Major Vermeil (49)
Trick Shot (1)
Director Krennic (5)

Total: 200

----------------------------------

or Vizier to coordinate when you need it

Colonel Vessery (88)
Juke (4)
Collision Detector (5)

“Redline” (44)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

“Vizier” (45)
Director Krennic (5)

Total: 200

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4 hours ago, SDCC said:

The meta for Imperial ships seems to have settled, and none of the builds are really grabbing my attention. I need to be invested in a list to really give it a go.

So I got to thinking; what would hook me in?

A Defender.

Then, what's good at the moment? 

Punishers.

So could they work together?

After a good chat with my friend Phil GC, we arrived at this.

Vessery - Juke, FCS - 95 points

Redline - AS, Proton Torps - 61 points

Pure Sabacc - 44 points

200 points

Two strong ships that synergise. Which left 44 points. There are options here, mainly Inferno TIEs and Strikers. Sabacc would give a bit of bite. But no bid.

 

I'm intrigued by it, and there's enough there for me to give it a go. What I need to figure out is how I'll set up!

Any thoughts? On any of it?

Honestly, I think you could drop FCS off of Vessery since you already get Target Lock rerolls with him. That'd give a few points to shuffle some stuff around, give PS a Talent, or give yourself a bid.

I do like the mess in target priority. Redline seems obvious, but then Vessery eats squads for lunch. If you forget about Pure Sabaac, take 5 dice to the face.

I'm guessing your 3-ship build will probably get eaten up by a well-flown heavy swarm, so get your reps in so you know how to outfly those 5-ship swarms.

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7 minutes ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

Honestly, I think you could drop FCS off of Vessery since you already get Target Lock rerolls with him. That'd give a few points to shuffle some stuff around, give PS a Talent, or give yourself a bid.

I do like the mess in target priority. Redline seems obvious, but then Vessery eats squads for lunch. If you forget about Pure Sabaac, take 5 dice to the face.

I'm guessing your 3-ship build will probably get eaten up by a well-flown heavy swarm, so get your reps in so you know how to outfly those 5-ship swarms.

Fortunately I've not seen many swarms since starting 2.0. I've been to three tournaments and not faced one!

The bigger point that I'll need to practice a lot with this list stands though. I like the look of it theoretically, just need to decide on Strike/Reaper, and get the table time.

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5 hours ago, Sergeant SPA5 said:

I'm glad great minds are thinking a like. I like the synchronisity between the punisher and the defender. I really like aces so I wanted to find a list with high PS but each being a viable threat. In preliminary practicing I've done pretty well with the following:

(84) Rexler Brath
(4) Lone Wolf
(3) Homing Missiles
Points 91

(44) "Redline"
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 53

(52) "Whisper"
(4) Juke
Points 56

Total points: 200

 

Having no bid is annoying and the build on redline isn't ideal. But I believe it's still effective.

LW rexler is quite formidable in the late game and the homing missile gets rid of pesky ships with 1-2 hull left.

I'm amazed in testing how often rexs ability triggers naturally. It's just one of those things.

I've been running and enjoying a very similar list -- the only change is Juke on Rexler instead of LW + Homing.  Having both Whisper and Rexler with Juke can combo nicely, and I think the 3-point bid is more valuable than a Homing Missile.  It won't win initiative vs. lists with a serious bid, but I do see lists that include I5 (e.g. Boba) and a 0-2 point bid, and going last definitely helps there.  If I were going to spend the last three points, it might be on Seismics for Redline, though I haven't tested that out.

When I've been playing this list, Redline's job is to get off a torpedo on the initial engagement, probably take a decent amount of damage (as the easiest target to hit) and then make herself  a hard target for a while (she can cover a lot of ground with boost) while Whisper and Rexler do their work.  Hopefully she either gets away and can come back around for another torpedo run, or the opponent spends a lot of effort chasing her even though she's the cheapest ship in the list.

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Good thread! I've been debating adv sensors on Rexlar vs traj + proton bomb on Redline.  I'm going to try both. 

As for third ship how about Sai for that coordinate action?

(47) Lieutenant Sai
Points 47
 
(44) "Redline"
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 53
 
(84) Rexler Brath
(4) Juke
(8) Advanced Sensors
Points 96
 
Total points: 196

 

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Generally, I've become firmly in the Advanced Sensors camp on Defenders.  You can fly unpredictably without them, definitely, but AS means you can leave the opponent with zero good options.  It substantially increases the number of good moves on the dial, and reduces the number of moves susceptible to counterplay.  It's an improvement in the early, mid, and late game.   Most significantly, the Defender is expensive enough that 8 points for AS is not a huge increase in points considering it's such a huge increase in capabilities.

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Great little list - perfect blend of competitive and fun. 

Is the general consensus then that a adjustment to the OP list would be to move AS from Redline to Vessery? I baulk at the cost of Vess if we do

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What about dropping AS altogether and replacing Sabacc with Jendon and ST321 title? That should give Vessery another source of free locks and a soft AdvS-like action via coordinate.

Edited by PT106

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I do agree with @Biophysical. I'd like to put AS back on, in a way, but I lean on it too heavily. I am really liking FCS as a sub, it can really pay for itself, especially late game.

As for switching, I firmly believe Redline needs AS more. It's quite dependant on how long you intend either one to survive though....

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I'm the Delta defender guy. :D

If I'm playing a list like this, I'm going to knock Vessery down to an Delta with FCS for 75 points, plus 61 on Redline, and that'd leave 64 for the 3rd ship.  Whatever I'd get, it'd be a lot more threatening than a Pure Sabaac.

That could be a Whisper with Juke and Collision Detector (one of my favorite Imperial Builds).  I've had fun with Major Vynder, and 60-ish points can get a pretty cool build for him (I like OS-1, FCS, AdvS, Lone Wolf).  That could be a fairly sweet Reaper; Vermiel or Feroph with Vader.  The FCS on the Delta would also be the first points to cut if you wanted something like 0-0-0 on a Vader-Reaper.  Maybe The Grand Inquisitor with just FCS.

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On 11/14/2018 at 3:25 PM, Hos said:

Good thread! I've been debating adv sensors on Rexlar vs traj + proton bomb on Redline.  I'm going to try both. 

As for third ship how about Sai for that coordinate action?

(47) Lieutenant Sai
Points 47
 
(44) "Redline"
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 53
 
(84) Rexler Brath
(4) Juke
(8) Advanced Sensors
Points 96
 
Total points: 196

 

Thanks for sharing this list! I personally think it is amazing and quite competitive. 

The only thing I've changed is a HLC on Rexler, which provides some more 4-dice potency.

However tonight I tested swapping advanced sensors onto redline. It feels so much better having 1 ship with advanced sensors and the other with pseudo advanced sensors

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To come back to this, I had one game last week with it and it was an absolute nightmare. You'd think a TIE swarm with Echo/Sloane wouldn't be a terrible matchup.

I misjudged things, and realised I really needed AdvS on Redline! I'll be giving it some more thought before I use it again.

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3 hours ago, SDCC said:

To come back to this, I had one game last week with it and it was an absolute nightmare. You'd think a TIE swarm with Echo/Sloane wouldn't be a terrible matchup.

I misjudged things, and realised I really needed AdvS on Redline! I'll be giving it some more thought before I use it again.

Tbf, that's a horribly difficult squad to play against using 3 ships with no real stress management.

But AdvS on Redline is the real deal otherwise.

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