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Painted vs Non-Painted

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19 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Well, if you want to compete at Worlds, apparently you'd better paint, because the Adepticon guidelines for the High Command Invitational require painted armies with at least 3 colors.

I wouldn't count on that.

From the Adepticon model rules (empahsis mine):

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2019/2019model.pdf

1. ALL models, for ALL game systems must be painted to a 3-color minimum standard unless otherwise specified in the event rules. This means that an honest attempt to paint all models MUST be exhibited and that 3 colors have not been simply applied to circumvent this policy. Judges have the final say in what constitutes the spirit of this policy. As a rule, if someone feels the need to justify why a model is completed, it probably isn’t. If you cannot meet this requirement, please contact us.

2. Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the choice they represent and that all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game.

First off, I think the clause "unless otherwise specified in the event rules" is pretty important.  Let's see what FFG writes for that.  How many paths to World's are there?  Adepticon isn't writing the rules for all of them. 

Second, Legion is not a WYSIWIG game.  For instance there is no way to visually represent grenades, targeting scopes, grappling hooks....now in the case of an AT-ST no other official tournament or event has demanded that you display all weapon options you have equipped. 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

I wouldn't count on that.

From the Adepticon model rules (empahsis mine):

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2019/2019model.pdf

1. ALL models, for ALL game systems must be painted to a 3-color minimum standard unless otherwise specified in the event rules. This means that an honest attempt to paint all models MUST be exhibited and that 3 colors have not been simply applied to circumvent this policy. Judges have the final say in what constitutes the spirit of this policy. As a rule, if someone feels the need to justify why a model is completed, it probably isn’t. If you cannot meet this requirement, please contact us.

2. Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the choice they represent and that all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game.

First off, I think the clause "unless otherwise specified in the event rules" is pretty important.  Let's see what FFG writes for that.  How many paths to World's are there?  Adepticon isn't writing the rules for all of them. 

Second, Legion is not a WYSIWIG game.  For instance there is no way to visually represent grenades, targeting scopes, grappling hooks....now in the case of an AT-ST no other official tournament or event has demanded that you display all weapon options you have equipped. 

 

 

Oh, I agree with you about what Legion is *supposed* to be, but here are the rules from Adepticon's page for the Legion High Command event (from which the top 8 attend "Worlds" at FFG HQ, so this is the only path to Worlds).

Congrats! You’ve taken your first step into a larger world. You’ve made it to the High Command Invitational. This is where things start to get really challenging. In this invitational event, you’ll be competing for a spot in the Star Wars: Legion World Championships later in the year! This highly exclusive event and ultimate test of Legion skill features the final top eight players from the High Command Invitational. Each of the top eight players will win airfare and lodging to attend and compete for the title of World Champion. They will also have the coveted opportunity to tour the Fantasy Flight Games studio and visit with the developers before returning to the galactic battlefields, where their desperate fights will be holo-cast (or at least streamed) live to the world.

This event will utilize the Star Wars Legion Rules found on the Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars Legion Support page.

Full rules packet will be available by January 1st, 2019 but the following rules will be in effect:

-Limited to 32 players with slots earned by score placement in Maximum Qualifier events.
-Armies will consist of 800 points or less.
-All players will play four 120 minute Swiss-paired rounds, with a final cut to the top two.
-Top eight will qualify for the Star Wars: Legion World Championships later in the year!
-All players are expected to abide by the AdeptiCon Conduct Policy.
-The models used in your army must comply with the AdeptiCon Model Policy (all models MUST be WYSIWYG and standard 3- colors paint rule).

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56 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'm betting the WYSIWYG is, as in most games, applying to weapons and specific named characters rather than stuff like grenades and grappling hooks.

Then we have a real problem with the AT-ST and AT-RT, because showing which optional weapons are equipped has never been a thing before.

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2 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

Then we have a real problem with the AT-ST and AT-RT, because showing which optional weapons are equipped has never been a thing before.

They provide you every weapon you need, why is this a problem?

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1 minute ago, Tubb said:

They provide you every weapon you need, why is this a problem?

Not everyone magnetizes, not everyone likes the look of having all the weapons on the AT-ST.

I'm not going to Adepticon, I would never expect to qualify for worlds.  

But to this point they've been clear that this is not a WYSIWIG game.  

All of the events to date have not been WYSIWIG.  It seems a bit of a jerk move to suddenly insist on it.

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15 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

Not everyone magnetizes, not everyone likes the look of having all the weapons on the AT-ST.

I'm not going to Adepticon, I would never expect to qualify for worlds.  

But to this point they've been clear that this is not a WYSIWIG game.  

All of the events to date have not been WYSIWIG.  It seems a bit of a jerk move to suddenly insist on it.

I don't mind about adepticon, but a game that provides you with:

1- More soldiers -per squad- that you can possibly deploy, so that you got enough  spare soldiers to show them with their correct heavy weapon, ONLY to be able to deploy them visually correct.

2- Enough weapons so that you can represent EVERY possible option for vehicles.

3- Upgrades represented with miniatures like the specialists inside squads.

 

And you keep saying they DON'T go WYSIWYG?

 

You don't have enough saying that you would allow unpainted minis? now you want to show the at-st with wichever weapon you have placed and PROXY them??? or without weapons?

And this is not even an reductio as absurdum and not even a Straw man argument... what do YOU propose? playing an AT-ST without weapons in a tournament pretending it has what you say?

Now it is not only a matter of having a beautiful army, it is a matter of showing what it actually IS

And you don't even need to magnetize, blutac will keep your weapon in place. Or simply choose the weapon that you want your vehicle to have, glue it, and this will be its weapon forever... is it really so big a problem to choose one and play with that? or the MOST important thing is to have every weapon to completely wipe out the oponent?

Did you know that persons that play with you not only enjoy fighting and winning but also like a beautiful army and, of course, prefer that the army represents actually what it has? The person you got in front of you doesn't know your army, it is not polite to represent a list with things that are not WYSIWYG, people can get confused.

Again I will ask you: if you allow a vehicle without weapons why can't i play with a squad without heavy weapon soldier? Again it is NOT a Straw man argument nor a latin stupid sentence, it is a legit question.

Perhaps the events to date have not been WYSIWIG simply because very few people have had enough time to really prepare a good painted and ready to play army, the game was new, but now you have had plenty of time, so it is not a matter of jerking or being a jerk (not every person that disagree with you is a jerk, not every change you don't like is jerking) perhaps it is just a matter of trying to achieve a good quality tournament, perhaps with:

- Good tables (that means PAINTED buildings or barricades, mats and/or good terrain)

- Nice armies (that means perhaps painted soldiers and of course not allowing proxies).

-Lots of players to play AND show interesting and beautiful armies. Not everyone has problems with this points, in fact, a lot enjoy seeing a lot of beautiful armies toghether. not everyone goes to tournaments to win, in fact, only a few win, the rest enjoy anyway...

What is a jerk is to keep on insistint that every tournament should be organized agreeing with your vision of the game, ie, unpainted minis or proxy weapons on vehicles. One thing is playing with someone or at home, do whatever you want, but in a tournament you CAN try to keep up the level and beg for SOME efforts from the players. Everyone is trying to do their best painting, preparing tables and making terrain and you simply don't want to paint or place a matching weapon simply because you don't want to.

 

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6 minutes ago, Tubb said:

I don't mind about adepticon, but a game that provides you with:

1- More soldiers -per squad- that you can possibly deploy, so that you got enough  spare soldiers to show them with their correct heavy weapon, ONLY to be able to deploy them visually correct.

2- Enough weapons so that you can represent EVERY possible option for vehicles.

3- Upgrades represented with miniatures like the specialists inside squads.

 

And you keep saying they DON'T go WYSIWYG?

 

You don't have enough saying that you would allow unpainted minis? now you want to show the at-st with wichever weapon you have placed and PROXY them??? or without weapons?

And this is not even an reductio as absurdum and not even a Straw man argument... what do YOU propose? playing an AT-ST without weapons in a tournament pretending it has what you say?

Now it is not only a matter of having a beautiful army, it is a matter of showing what it actually IS

And you don't even need to magnetize, blutac will keep your weapon in place. Or simply choose the weapon that you want your vehicle to have, glue it, and this will be its weapon forever... is it really so big a problem to choose one and play with that? or the MOST important thing is to have every weapon to completely wipe out the oponent?

Did you know that persons that play with you not only enjoy fighting and winning but also like a beautiful army and, of course, prefer that the army represents actually what it has? The person you got in front of you doesn't know your army, it is not polite to represent a list with things that are not WYSIWYG, people can get confused.

Again I will ask you: if you allow a vehicle without weapons why can't i play with a squad without heavy weapon soldier? Again it is NOT a Straw man argument nor a latin stupid sentence, it is a legit question.

Perhaps the events to date have not been WYSIWIG simply because very few people have had enough time to really prepare a good painted and ready to play army, the game was new, but now you have had plenty of time, so it is not a matter of jerking or being a jerk (not every person that disagree with you is a jerk, not every change you don't like is jerking) perhaps it is just a matter of trying to achieve a good quality tournament, perhaps with:

- Good tables (that means PAINTED buildings or barricades, mats and/or good terrain)

- Nice armies (that means perhaps painted soldiers and of course not allowing proxies).

-Lots of players to play AND show interesting and beautiful armies. Not everyone has problems with this points, in fact, a lot enjoy seeing a lot of beautiful armies toghether. not everyone goes to tournaments to win, in fact, only a few win, the rest enjoy anyway...

What is a jerk is to keep on insistint that every tournament should be organized agreeing with your vision of the game, ie, unpainted minis or proxy weapons on vehicles. One thing is playing with someone or at home, do whatever you want, but in a tournament you CAN try to keep up the level and beg for SOME efforts from the players. Everyone is trying to do their best painting, preparing tables and making terrain and you simply don't want to paint or place a matching weapon simply because you don't want to.

 

Considering that WYSIWIG isn't part of the core rules, the upgrades on the unit dictate what is actually being used and not what is on the model, and that the AT-ST is 50 retail yeah I would.

I've had nothing but bad luck with magnets and other temporary methods of holding weapons in place. Congratulations on your success. Is it really so big a problem to accept that the upgrade card(s) for said vehicle are what it actually has?

Did you know that persons that play with you not only enjoy fighting and winning but also want to have fun and, of course, prefer that the opponent isn't fussing over every little detail? The person you got in front of you doesn't have the same amount of time and money as you, it is not polite to nitpick every little detail in his army when he is doing his best.

Something you probably didn't notice is that the upgrade card for the heavy says to add that heavy unit. Vehicles don't have that so there is your answer.

Perhaps the events to date have not been WYSIWIG because WYSIWIG communities tend to be toxic (warhammer). Perhaps it is just a matter of trying to achieve a good quality tournament, perhaps with:

-Good Sportsmanship

-Fun matches

-Lost of players to play and meet to talk about our hobby. Not Every has problems with this point, in fact, a lot enjoy hanging around with people with similar passions. Not everyone goes to tournaments to win, in fact, only a few win, the rest enjoy anyway....

What is a jerk is to keep on insisting that every tournament should be organized agreeing with your vision of the game, ie, custom painted models. One thig is playing with someone or at home, do whatever you want, but in a tournament you CAN try to be a good sport and beg for the SAME from the players. Everyone is trying to do their best arranging transportation, taking time off of work, and making friends and you simply want to nit pick every little detail because you have nothing better to do with your time

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Personally, I primarily have an issue when people make demands on painting, mirror matches, or WYSIWYG in casual play pickup environments. I don't have as much of an objection to tournaments or event games that provide players with ample notice to meet any painting or other such requirements. I also don't have an objection to tournaments NOT having these restrictions, that's up the the organizers, but since they have to worry about PR and photos, I can understand the non-game reasoning behind the requirements. 

Adepticon is in March, which means everyone who is paying the money for the convention tickets, hotel, and travel and has either qualified for the Invitational or is hoping to at the qualifier should (hopefully) be able to afford to take a day to get models painted up with three colours. There is zero requirement for accuracy or quality, so at worst just put 3 different colours on the model. Hopefully everyone planning on playing has checked the requirements.

On the AT-ST, the only weapon upgrade that NEEDS to be attached in some way is the mortar, which could also be held on by blu tack/poster putty if not a magnet. The cheek weapons both fit snugly into the slots and are easily removed. I do agree that the AT-RT would kinda suck to change if you didn't magnetize though. 

@thepopemobile100 I've seen as much toxicity in non-WYSIWYG game communities as any Warhammer, Infinity, Warmahordes, Guild ball, X-Wing, Armada, or (most) historical games. Toxicity often has more to do with the personalities  of players in my experience than anything to do with the game. Some card and board game communities are even worse. 

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56 minutes ago, Tubb said:

Again I will ask you: if you allow a vehicle without weapons why can't i play with a squad without heavy weapon soldier? Again it is NOT a Straw man argument nor a latin stupid sentence, it is a legit question.

AS with all of the other FFG minis games, the upgrades are found on the cards, not the model. 

If you can figure out which starfighter has the proton torpedo launchers and which has the conner net by paying attention to the cards then you can do the same with an AT-RT or an AT-ST.

As to the heavy weapon in a trooper squad: If you REALLY wanted to put down 5 stormtroopers and say that the left handed one is the HH-12 I wouldn't have that much of a problem with it.  It is visually distinct and you need that to be able to tell where LOS is for making and receiving attacks.  But we're not talking about a multi model unit that has cohesion moves and some of it has LOS and some of it does not.  The vehicles are all single model units and they have LOS or they do not.  I decided to make my AT-ST with just the chin gun and the cheek gun.  I thought it looked good that way and when the game first came out Alex said it didn't matter what weapons you could see on the model, it mattered what cards were showing in front of you.  

I'm not cool with them changing it at the last minute.  I'd also like them to make a 3 color rule for ALL official tournaments if they're going to do it for any of them, but I just don't like arbitrary rules.    

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7 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

AS with all of the other FFG minis games, the upgrades are found on the cards, not the model. 

If you can figure out which starfighter has the proton torpedo launchers and which has the conner net by paying attention to the cards then you can do the same with an AT-RT or an AT-ST.

As to the heavy weapon in a trooper squad: If you REALLY wanted to put down 5 stormtroopers and say that the left handed one is the HH-12 I wouldn't have that much of a problem with it.  It is visually distinct and you need that to be able to tell where LOS is for making and receiving attacks.  But we're not talking about a multi model unit that has cohesion moves and some of it has LOS and some of it does not.  The vehicles are all single model units and they have LOS or they do not.  I decided to make my AT-ST with just the chin gun and the cheek gun.  I thought it looked good that way and when the game first came out Alex said it didn't matter what weapons you could see on the model, it mattered what cards were showing in front of you.  

I'm not cool with them changing it at the last minute.  I'd also like them to make a 3 color rule for ALL official tournaments if they're going to do it for any of them, but I just don't like arbitrary rules.    

That's fair about the cards. I'm not 100% clear on WHAT Adepticon means by WYSIWYG here, does it just mean no proxies, or does it mean the weapons on the vehicle? Legion is a little unique since it is halfway between X-wing and a more traditional miniature game.

My question is, did FFG set the policy for the Legion tournament or was it Adepticon? If the former, I agree, I would have liked to see it formalized for at least the upper level tourneys in the official tournament rules. The later, then FFG should be more strict about enforcing their standards on all tournaments. 

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

That's fair about the cards. I'm not 100% clear on WHAT Adepticon means by WYSIWYG here, does it just mean no proxies, or does it mean the weapons on the vehicle? Legion is a little unique since it is halfway between X-wing and a more traditional miniature game.

My question is, did FFG set the policy for the Legion tournament or was it Adepticon? If the former, I agree, I would have liked to see it formalized for at least the upper level tourneys in the official tournament rules. The later, then FFG should be more strict about enforcing their standards on all tournaments. 

Can’t wait to see those 3 distinct color slate grey AT-STs. What an absurdity.

The problem with Adepticon is that it’s Warhammer centric, so of course nothing about Legion is going to fit into the box they’ve created. WYSIWYG? No, not hardly unless you mean what upgrade cards you see. 3 color minis for the Empire? So, a My little pony squad checks out easily, but a legitimately painted in accordance with the movies squad is no bueno? Just wow. 

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3 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Can’t wait to see those 3 distinct color slate grey AT-STs. What an absurdity.

The problem with Adepticon is that it’s Warhammer centric, so of course nothing about Legion is going to fit into the box they’ve created. WYSIWYG? No, not hardly unless you mean what upgrade cards you see. 3 color minis for the Empire? So, a My little pony squad checks out easily, but a legitimately painted in accordance with the movies squad is no bueno? Just wow. 

3 colors is easy on a stormtrooper

White armor, black undersuit, blue on the side vents on the cheeks of the helmet.  Viola!  you have a movie accurate stormtrooper.

you also have the options of metallic sheen on the gun, object source lighting, pauldron/base rim, squad colors ala clone troopers, weathering such as blood or dirt.....

I have yet to paint a strictly two color stormtrooper and between Legion and IA I've painted 58 of them.

 

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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'm not 100% clear on WHAT Adepticon means by WYSIWYG here, does it just mean no proxies, or does it mean the weapons on the vehicle?

This is from their rules document

2. Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the choice they represent and that all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game.

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1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Zrob314 Thanks. I can't say I'm surprised, since that the "norm" for WYSIWYG. I think this is another symptom of FFG primarily producing board games and Legion being their first really big miniature game. I don't think I saw a Runewars event at Adepticon...

That is the Adepticon Rules doc by the way, not a FFG publication.

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Just now, Zrob314 said:

That is the Adepticon Rules doc by the way, not a FFG publication.

I know, what I mean is that FFG isn't forcing Adepticon to abide by their specific standards, nor did it include similar restrictions in their own tournament document. Since it is my understanding that the tournaments at Adepticon lead to the FFG World's tournament, getting to host is a big deal. FFG SHOULD have some kind of pull with tourney restrictions, or they kowtowed to Adepticon's requirements. I know Adepticon is a big deal, so maybe this is a case of FFG caving, IDK. 

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9 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

3 colors is easy on a stormtrooper

White armor, black undersuit, blue on the side vents on the cheeks of the helmet.  Viola!  you have a movie accurate stormtrooper.

you also have the options of metallic sheen on the gun, object source lighting, pauldron/base rim, squad colors ala clone troopers, weathering such as blood or dirt.....

I have yet to paint a strictly two color stormtrooper and between Legion and IA I've painted 58 of them.

 

A new hope stormtroopers don’t have blue vents, they’re also black. So, 2-tone, not 3. 

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42 minutes ago, Derrault said:

A new hope stormtroopers don’t have blue vents, they’re also black. So, 2-tone, not 3. 

the vents are actually a dark gray, so while you are correct it isn't blue you would still need 3 colors

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I don't know about tournament specific rules, but perhaps using highlights and shadows may be considered using two tones of paint?

Anyway, the rules provided here also say something about the organisers having last word about it and HONEST efforts to bring painted minis. A white coat with black weapon should mean unpainted in some cases but talking about stormtroopers should be enough if you simply paint the base.

That's exactly what I mean about painting the army, an honest effort to bring armies that are worth seeing. Just the same way people here would ask for honest efforts to bring a good list and playing fair and give a good and funny game to the opponent. I simply value the effort.

BOTH efforts :)

 

Edited by Tubb

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