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1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Edit: It can also be used to identify which minis you own. If two people paint their Empire miniatures screen accurate and base on black, then it will be VERY hard for them to make sure each player walks away with their minis should they become intermingled in melee. 

This is why I have a blob of paint underneath each mini's base! They always match the squad leaders pauldron or the duros' skin color or something in that squad.

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Just now, NeonWolf said:

Nah, he's good, there's barricades (barricada) on that table so it's legit... (/sarcasm)

?

To be fair, I was the only one bringing terrain too... lol My opponent hadn't even started to invest. Barricades were our last resort to break up some of those firing lanes.  

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5 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

But again. If I didn't even try to win, if I was to stampede my squads into dangerous terrain for fun, or make up an insult that my army had to avenge by wiping out a specific stormtrooper squad to the exclusion of all other objectives, every single game... people wouldn't say "Oh that's just how he enjoys his hobby". It would be me not taking the game seriously, I'm just wasting my opponents time, etc. etc. If the great majority of players didn't even try? Disaster. But the visual equivalent is acceptable to the community for some reason, in a highly visual pursuit.

False equivalency.  

There are no points for painted miniatures.  Painted minis do not get a free reroll against non-painted miniatures.  Paint does not win the game.  Ever.

Not everyone has the time or money to devote to being a good painter.  Yes, it is nice to have a hobby, but I'm not gonna bash anyone who do it themselves.  I will also do everything I can to encourage people to paint their stuff, but I'd rather be able to play the game.  

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8 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

To be fair, I was the only one bringing terrain too... lol My opponent hadn't even started to invest. Barricades were our last resort to break up some of those firing lanes.  

I'm just being salty based on some comments in other threads. It's not a dig at you or your table at all. If you and your opponent had fun playing the game, that's all that matters.

On topic - I play miniatures games for a few reasons. First, I enjoy the critical thinking required in both the list building portion of the game and in the actual playing of the game. Second, I enjoy modeling and painting the miniatures and have WAY more unpainted models than painted. Finally, I enjoy the spectacle of the games that are played with 100% painted miniatures and completed, realistic terrain.

I would rather play a good game that challenges me than quibble over how my opponents miniatures look.  Ultimately, the look of the models doesn't change the the play of the game itself.

Edited by NeonWolf
grammar

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@TauntaunScout That argument is facetious and a false equivalence. Inviting a person to play a game and then going out of my way to not play the game as intended is not the same as engaging your opponent in the exact same activity but a different color.

An unpainted player is not wasting your time anymore than someone who shows up to a race with a different color car.

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32 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

This is why I have a blob of paint underneath each mini's base! They always match the squad leaders pauldron or the duros' skin color or something in that squad.

I also do this. Each of my stormtroopers has a number of dots on the underneath of the base to show which squad he belongs to. 

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I was gifted Imperial Assault before the second wave came out and it inspired me to start painting my first game since Hero Quest in the 90s.

Since then I’ve picked up all IA content, all Mansions of Madness 2 content, all Descent 2 content, all Legion content and some other games with minis that I paint like Gloomhaven, Fallout, whatever.

Barring a change to my lifestyle, I’ll never be “caught up” or “current.” I paint what I can when I can. I’ve showed up at IA tourneys with 100% naked minis, 100% painted minis, and everything in between, including stuff that’s just been primed, or just has base layers, etc.

I paint to have fun and relax, I play the games themselves to do the same, even in a competitive setting. Some of the raddest paint jobs and mods I’ve seen are alts (Pink Vader is always a hit) or non-thematic (fought 2 Stormie squads, one painted like the original X-Men uniforms and one like various Iron Man armors). If someone’s excited to play and excited about their army, rad. If it’s all gray plastic but they’re in it to win it... that’s rad too. If they’re new and I get to teach / play, rad. If they’re a pro and I get waxed and learn along the way, rad. 

It’s all good to me. 

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1 hour ago, ImhotepMagi said:

@TauntaunScout That argument is facetious and a false equivalence. Inviting a person to play a game and then going out of my way to not play the game as intended is not the same as engaging your opponent in the exact same activity but a different color.

An unpainted player is not wasting your time anymore than someone who shows up to a race with a different color car.

I don't see it as a false equivalency and I'm being serious. Play the game as who intended? If someone has different priorities about what they want to get out of the game experience, why's that different? If I was talking about painting you would say it's their hobby, who are you to define how they should have fun? Usually such annoyng play-styles are adopted by young new players but if someone wanted to do that, and you dislike the experience, is that on you? Like it's on me for preferring a fully painted opposition force? Now, I value ALL aspects of the experience. I want painted models, interesting terrain, and to have people to take their game turns seriously. The difference between not even trying to win, and not even trying to paint your forces, is that only one is socially acceptable. Used to be neither of them was. Maybe I'm just a relic of a bygone era.


I have seen people play wargames in such a ridiculous time wasting way. They usually have a blast. But do they get anyone's respect for it? Presumably not, unless they are somehow roleplaying the heck out that faction's backstory maybe. That's what an unpainted army is like. You can still have a fun game with them. But is it going to impress anyone that we collected a bunch of grey plastic? Maybe not but you can still get cool stories out of the battle or whatnot. Now, the real tongue biting comes when someone uses broken unpainted minis and talks about how "serious" they take miniature wargaming... yep, so serious that they ignore whole aspects of the hobby.  I avoided one club for awhile because among all the "serious" players using SOLO cups as space marine drop pods was very much in vogue. For those unfamiliar, drop pods were kinda broken for awhile, but pricey in the real world, so it was like pay-to-win only free? It was weird.

I don't refuse to play people who have unpainted models. I don't care what the skill level of the painting is: if there's paint on the minis, I'll find something to praise about the paintjob. Sadly it's hard to find painted armies to praise.

When you have a game where the armies aren't painted, and the dice decree that nothing memorable happens, and one or both player's lacks a fun personality, what's left? At least if we start off with two painted armies we know going into it that we're gonna create a cool looking battlefield.

Now car racing and the color of cars, that's a false equivalency. This is more like we're putting on an amateur theatrical performance. The rules are the script. We both learned our lines. The scenery is the scenery, we made or borrowed it. The paintjobs are the costumes. I brought my costume. If you had a very good reason for not bringing a costume on opening night... the show can go on. If you are a very good actor the show can still be great and you can still outperform me. But nothing changes the fact that it would have been even better if you brought your costume.

Another great thing about a painted army is, you still have some pride in it after the publisher jerks you around edition to edition. GW players all know what I'm talking about and so do some others. If you played a lot of the other games from the olden days, they've totally folded, which is even worse.

I met my best gaming buddy in high school marching band. A few years ago, I painted a sci-fi army that almost perfectly matches our old marching band uniforms, plus, y'know, guns. When we get together a couple times a year to play, I have to use those! And it doesn't matter what happens with the dice, those figures make our games awesome. That experience could simply never happen with unpainted figures.

Another reason I've become strict about painted figures for myself is, it is the only thing keeping my house from filling with junk. SOMETHING has to be put in place to slow down the acquisition of models.

 

Edited by TauntaunScout

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6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

 Then I learned the three foot rule (it only has to look good at three feet), and improved my assembly line technique (instead of trying to paint the same colour on the entire ARMY, only focus on a squad at a time) both of which majorly sped up my painting, either through not worrying as much about every minute detail, or by making the task seem less daunting.

This this this. Paint them good enough. We don't play with magnifying glasses. I miss the days when GW's official line was basically "Paint everything but for your troops just pick nice colors and stay inside the lines, shading and fine detail is usually reserved for heroes and such". Not every figure needs to be entered in a competition. I know I've said it before but 1) Terry Litorco's videos are awesome for painting Legion minis fast and 2) the old WEG SWMB book had the best crash course of a chapter on figure painting and scenery making ever.

I coulda done it without the fabulous Teri, but she saved me from sacrificing a few of my heavies for color tests. This ongoing scale creep was really throwing me for a loop. Also I'm not sure I woulda figured out how to make core set rebels look Hothic without her. D**m her Hoth rebel scheme is fast paint job. Real fast. Even for her.

 

6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@TauntaunScout I mostly agree, however some of the worst games I have played were against people with painted armies but were blatantly cheating ("bumping" models, "accidently" pre measuring in games that don't allow it, etc), behaved rudely, or generally were poor sportsmen. So my experience is the paint job or lack thereof is not a good indicator of an opponent's personality or how enjoyable the game will be. I can understand given your experiences why you would mentally prepare for bad behaviour upon seeing unpainted miniatures being placed down at a tournament. 

 

Cheating is a whole other ball of wax. I very rarely meet other gamers with fully painted armies so I have been able to form few opinions on that.

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1 hour ago, KalEl814 said:

I was gifted Imperial Assault before the second wave came out and it inspired me to start painting my first game since Hero Quest in the 90s.

 

This one goes out to you then! I was recently very fortunate to see the original Heroquest test models. I believe they are metal, and slightly finer in some details than the plastic production pieces. Seems they were painted before the plastics were ready so they'd have stuff to use for pics. No one told me this, I'm making educated guesses.

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10 hours ago, chieftom22 said:

I'm not a 40k player but I've heard that, at one point, they forced tournament players to paint at least Three colors on their minis due to the fact that entire tournaments consisted of unpainted armies and players trying to protect their painted models. This was bad rep for GW, so they made a new rule. All this did was make these players quickly spray three different shades on their models before tournaments.

I used to play (Warhammer Fantasy) in GW's Grand Tournaments. I was neither the best general, nor the best painter, nor the best anything... but I really enjoyed it. The "3 Color" rules was indeed a thing. Most players went above and beyond. It elevates the game to see fully painted armies on the table, in my opinion. But I understand that not everyone can or wants to do that.

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@TauntaunScout You are not wrong about a lot of your points...for yourself.

The disconnect, think, is that I view it as a game with an optional painting aspect  and you view it as all one component unable to be separated. If it were inseparable, the game would REQUIRE painting in the rulebook. Instead, the social contract and one's level of commitment are the only thing that informs the painting level. The fact is, that social contract is created by the community and the views among the community have changed over the years. It is now more or less accepted that painting is encouraged, but not required. Times change. More people are included this way and that's good.

If you look at it from my point of view, the game is the race. You drive the car around the track and try to be fastest. My car is unpainted, yours is painted and looks great. We both get to race. You're disappointed the race wasn't as pretty but we both got to race and at least you could enjoy the competition.

If we look at it from your point of view, the same race requires all cars be painted. You get to race against other pretty cars. I get to go home, even though I brought a car perfectly capable of racing. 

Your theater analogy is a good one, except the script doesn't specify I need a costume. Acting isn't a competition. You are absolutely right that the game is MORE fun with painted armies and I, too, encourage people to do it because it's fun. But I'm not going to be disappointed because I'm there to get different things out of it. I'll take a good movie in black and white over a bad movie in color any day. 

We are probably never going to agree on this because I view the hobby as having distinct parts that can be enjoyed in different amounts and you view the hobby as being committed to everything in it. I believe my view is more realistically achievable and better for the hobby.

We are unlikely to ever agree on this, so I think we should agree to disagree. I hope you get all the painted games you want. I hope you enjoy the unpainted ones you don't just the same.

Edited by ImhotepMagi
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I really prefer to play with completely painted armies, and so I never play with unpainted minis, but I am the only one from my friends that owns the game, and I am the one who builds and paint the minis, so my friends simply enjoy the result of my efforts XDD. I play at home, and really prefer to wait a week before I finish "that" squad before using it, and same with buildings, terrain, etc. I would hate to play in something that really doesn't seem to be a diorama. I think it is just a matter of what we are used to (old wargames players), these kind of games are about building, modelling, painting and finally playing with a model army, in an scaled miniature scene (board?) I think itt is a very diferent beast from that other kind of games that people like to play competitively, such as card games, where your list is everything, or board or roleplaying games where the materials come prepainted and prebuilt or simply lies within your brain XDD.

Removing the modelling and painting part converts miniature games in another genre. THIS genre (miniature games) consists of this: building and painting and army and after that, you can, instead of just placing it in a display case, play with it.

if you just want to make another thing with the material provided, of course is up to you, and you shouldn't be critizised, but you must be aware that, for us, this is MEANT to be painted.

That's why people like me don't understand the concept of just playing for the sake of playing. If you want this kind of concept, then you can play with tons of board games out there, that will give you a great experience for sure. We (or some of us) don't understand that this kind of games can be played "as is", and that the rest of the hobby can be simply removed and still this is a viable way to enjoy.

One could say that it is like when you have the best fresh fruits in your kitchen bought to make a wonderful fruit salad and instead put everything on a blender and make a milkshake... it is not bad, but it is not the best way you could use that fruit. if you wanted to make a milkshake perhaps you could have used a worst fruit with similar results.

I think that we (older players) can perfectly understand that sometimes you don't feel really inclined to paint, or you don't have enough time, or whatever, but at least we are aware that we are not doing what we are "suposed to do" with our miniatures game... we are not "proud" to say that we don't paint because we don't want to, or never plan to do it.

So hearing some people around here saying that this is completely optional, that the game is meant to be played no matter how, or that first is playing and/or winning, and owning a beautiful army is not the goal... simply makes me VERY sad.

And, as usual, I will say it is also the company's fault. We are encouraged to buy a squad quickly, before it is sold out, if we want to win next week games, so we need to appear with the last squad mounted but of course not painted next saturday to compete with it in the FLGStore just to try win.

What about having the squad half built? What if I appear with just ONE stormtrooper mini (the leader) and five bases? It is perfectly understood that the rest of bases are just the rest of minis... you just need the line of sight of the leader, and I could glue the gun (just the gun) of the special weapon specialist in a base and that would be ace... would you still like to play with me? This may seem exaggerated but to us, it is a similar comparison.

I think we should try (at least try) to bring back that old feeling of being PROUD of your army not because it is "competitive", (beacuse today, sadly, competitive means "being the same list as a lot of armies") but because it is incredibly beautiful or special or you have made it "yours". To have a great list will sure mean there are at least a dozen armies like yours with the last shiny toy. Clone armies before clone wars enter legion XDDDD

Edited by Tubb

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@Tubb I've discussed a lot of your points upthread but I do want to say that I don't see playing with half assembled models the same as unpainted. Game-wise, the models function exactly the same regardless of their color. Since LOS is drawn to ALL the models in a unit by the leader, just a gun on a base would sometimes be out of LOS when a whole model is not, determining whether I could shoot a model or what models can be removed by damage. You can model your guy kneeling or lying down if you wish. That would still have mass and a physical presence on the field.

Also I could play board games or card games but those would not give me the same experience as a miniatures game, paint or no. As a person who plays a great many different games, each one provides a different experience. 

I absolutely agree that people SHOULD paint their armies and the game is more fun with it. I don't think anyone is arguing that painting is bad. I encourage everyone to do it if it appeals to them. I just think people should sill be able to play the game in peace if they choose not to.

Edited by ImhotepMagi
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27 minutes ago, ImhotepMagi said:

...I just think people should sill be able to play the game in peace if they choose not to.

And I can choose not to play with them, and that would not have to mean that I am being rude or selfish.

It could also be considered selfish or rude to bring an unpainted army to an event where most people try to make their best efforts to show a great army. The problem is when "most" people means persons that don't like the genre at all and play this like they could play PS4 or MTG. Then the whole concept changes, a miniature game is no longer what we thought it was a miniature game, and long term players that were there way before (and that COULD be there after things settle down) piss off XDDD

After all, a miniature game consists of painting or the company wouldn't provide a "painting" tab in the forum...

Edited by Tubb

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1 minute ago, Tubb said:

And I can choose not to play with them, and that would not have to mean that I am being rude or selfish.

It could also be considered selfish or rude to bring an unpainted army to an event where most people try to make their best efforts to show a great army. The problem is when "most" people means persons that don't like the genre at all and play this like they could play PS4. Then the whole concept changes, a miniature game is no longer what we thought it was a miniature game, and long term players that were there way before (and that COULD be there after things settle down) piss off XDDD

You can choose not to play them. Nobody has to play anybody. How you approach it is what makes it rude. If you politely decline without reason, then that is ok, though I think you are missing out on the chance to make a human connection. You might meet a new best friend. If you are flat out telling them they have to paint their models to play you, I do see that as rude because you are telling a person they are not worth your time. You might infer that a person who shows up with an unpainted army is telling you that your efforts are wasted, but I would argue that person is asking you for a game because they value spending time with you.

A video game is not a miniatures game. You could argue that a person who wants to play games only with painted miniatures should only play HeroClix. Or if you want games with pretty components then there are any number of lavish board games out there. The argument cuts both ways. A game that uses miniatures is still a miniatures game, even if they are different colors.

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Gaming trumps painting. If you show up to play, I'll play regardless of how your army looks, and be happy for the opponent. Yeah, I paint my stuff and appreciate a good paint job, but that's gravy.

//

Painting attitudes kept me out of miniatures games for 15 years. My first exposure was to Warhammer at a GW store. After expressing interest, I was then told how expensive a "competitive" army was, how the manufacturer dumped on it's customers all the time by changing rules to make things incompatible, and I was then told to be able to play I have to have everything painted in at least three colors. I'd never painted a mini in my life, so the idea of making a major investment in something that would go obsolete and to learn a new skill and put in a whole bunch of work before playing my first game ... well, you can see how welcome that would make someone feel.

Get them into the game, expose them to good painting by example, then if they decide to try painting encourage them -- that grows communities.

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7 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

 

I knew a guy who agreed so strongly with you that he didn't use bases. At all. He bent the figures legs around to ensure they could balance without them. And that flew in his local scene for some reason, don't ask me how. I never played with him, I met him after he quit gaming.

For tournaments, I think "finished" just meant "not covered in random figure paint blobs and glue". You had to at least paint over that stuff on the base after finishing your figures.

I always liked the bases with their flocking and stuff. Made the figures look "like a miniature" which has it's own charm. Think about it: we don't want stained glass windows to look realistic, we want them to look like a stained glass window.

For my Star Wars guys, I (usually) base them all to match my most extensive gaming table, but that's another subject.

Ah I read it as painted (I only super glue to the bases after they’re done). Which, I’ve toyed with the idea of basing off and on, but I keep running into that mismatch problem.

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16 minutes ago, ImhotepMagi said:

How you approach it is what makes it rude. If you politely decline without reason, then that is ok, though I think you are missing out on the chance to make a human connection. You might meet a new best friend. If you are flat out telling them they have to paint their models to play you, I do see that as rude because you are telling a person they are not worth your time.

You CAN tell a person they are not worth your time without being rude. Simply informing someone that you prefer to play with painted minis shouldn't be bad. The argument cuts both ways XDD

18 minutes ago, ImhotepMagi said:

A video game is not a miniatures game. You could argue that a person who wants to play games only with painted miniatures should only play HeroClix. Or if you want games with pretty components then there are any number of lavish board games out there. The argument cuts both ways. A game that uses miniatures is still a miniatures game, even if they are different colors.

I still could play X-wing and have painted minis, like heroclix. I am sorry but we are not talking the same language. A miniature game is not just a game that uses miniatures.

Would you consider Mansions of madness a miniatures game? It isn't. it has minis, a lot of them, but you could play perfectly without them.

Monolith's Conan board game? Fallout board game? zombicide? All these games use minis, but, as before they could perfectly be played without them.

A miniature game should mean a game that takes out MOST abstractions and gives us a representation of the terrain, forces and elements that are interacting as if it was real. Tipically the miniatures are the focus and typically require assembly and painting. They’re extremely tactical and require precise positioning and some hobby time spent outside of the game. This is the description that I found most suitable.

X-Wing then IS a miniatures game... it represents space, minis are just like in "real life" and the "terrain" is realistic (most of the times XDD). The minis require precise positioning and have true line of sight rules. The only difference is that it comes prepainted and terrain is extremely easy to represent, so it is very easy to achieve a good realistic result. it gives away the required asembly and painting because they managed to sell you the minis already painted... but someone has painted them anyway XDDD

Imperial Assault? Is NOT a miniatures game, no matter what FFG says... I'm not buying it... XDD

It has cardboard... a beautiful cardboard, but still it is NOT trying to give you a realistic view of the battlefield, it has lots of abstractions, and carefull positioning inside a realistic environment is not required.

So no, today a game that uses miniatures is NOT still a miniatures game. there are dozens of board games that give you tons of miniatures simply because companies know that you will pay more if they got plastic minis inside. But they are still board games, designed as board games. You don't have to paint board games minis, althought they look really better.

But if you got a realistic wargame, with true line of sight, carefull positioning, with focus on miniatures and its environment, that tries to represent "real life" minis... please DON'T think of it as if it was a board game with minis, please.

SW: legion is not a board game with minis, it is a wargame. Not painting the miniatures in an already streamlined game approaches it to that genre of board games with minis, where painting minis is much more optional.

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@Tubb I apologize. I spoke in haste and without clarification. I will accept your definition of a miniatures wargame. I would argue that board games are generally using miniatures as pawns, and that X-Wing could be played entirely with just the bases and no miniatures at all, making it a free-form chit-based game.

But accepting your definition of miniatures wargame, so what? A coat of paint improves the experience yes, but you would play the exact same way without the paint. You're not playing a different game, you are playing a game with a (in your eyes) diminished experience. Your steak is cooked well done instead of medium rare, but it is by no means raw or burnt. It's not pretty but a full belly is better than an empty one. 

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5 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

False equivalency.  

There are no points for painted miniatures.  Painted minis do not get a free reroll against non-painted miniatures.  Paint does not win the game.  Ever.

It depends, in sw:legion there aren't, but in other wargame systems of course there's a prize for the best painted army, and even giving you one point for each game played in a tournament system. Some companies and players understand the importance of a good painted army in a game genre like this one. To see a representation of "reality" in a table is a decisive part of the wargaming experience, and an important source of enjoyment. If you enjoy the "ruling and wining and making lists" part of the game, then of course it is not a genre for you. You should better try to play card games or board games or even chits and bits wargames. You can do whatever you want with your game and your minis, of course, but you are skipping a very relevant part of the wargaming hobby.

 

5 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

I will also do everything I can to encourage people to paint their stuff, but I'd rather be able to play the game.  

Well, tastes are tastes, but I really enjoy more painting my minis or playing another board game rather than playing a wargame with unpainted minis.

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28 minutes ago, Tubb said:

It depends, in sw:legion there aren't, but in other wargame systems of course there's a prize for the best painted army, and even giving you one point for each game played in a tournament system. Some companies and players understand the importance of a good painted army in a game genre like this one. To see a representation of "reality" in a table is a decisive part of the wargaming experience, and an important source of enjoyment. If you enjoy the "ruling and wining and making lists" part of the game, then of course it is not a genre for you. You should better try to play card games or board games or even chits and bits wargames. You can do whatever you want with your game and your minis, of course, but you are skipping a very relevant part of the wargaming hobby.

 

Well, tastes are tastes, but I really enjoy more painting my minis or playing another board game rather than playing a wargame with unpainted minis.

Giving someone prizes for an unentangled Best paint job is a far cry from disqualifying players who didn’t have a painted minis.

If you want to enter (or not) the beauty pageant portion, that doesn’t have any bearing on your ability to play the game, and the two should never be entwined. 

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1 hour ago, Tubb said:

You CAN tell a person they are not worth your time without being rude. Simply informing someone that you prefer to play with painted minis shouldn't be bad. The argument cuts both ways XDD

I missed this earlier but I want to say I specifically disagree with this.

When you refuse to play someone because they haven't done something time-consuming, costly and unnecessary to actual gameplay just to improve your own experience, I believe you are being rude. It sounds snobbish and smacks of gatekeeping. It creates an extra barrier to entry when the hobby has enough already. You can politely decline without reason or make an excuse but to tell a person they are not worth your time because of an arbitrary standard you have dictated is, in my opinion, rude. 

Just play the game and then beg off for a while. One game out of 10 won't kill you. And who knows, you might make a friend and they might eventually be inspired to *gasp* paint their own minis! :O

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