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Bhelliom

Luke's balance wishlist

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7 minutes ago, Church14 said:

That’s not what exponentially means. 

Seriously?  We're starting here?  I've tried to be respectful in my disagreements, please do me the curiously of the same.  Comments may be hyperbolic, but I am trying to make a point, I'm not stupid.

9 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Sure, it isn’t too hard to trigger.

That is my main issue with his ability.  The combination of ease of the trigger with the ability to forgo armor makes him powerful against anything except a mirror match.

14 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Seriously, just don’t run Ravos,

I'm open to a better hero to run.  Beastmaster and Goremaw didn't playtest so great as they were surprisingly weak without their uniques, and overly complex to explain.  Kethra tested surprisingly strong wither her ability to give spines to almost everyone on the battlefield (her artillery wasn't actually too bad, which shocked me).

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51 minutes ago, Darth Matthew said:

Rune Golems and Carrion Lances both put out banes in lieu of attacking.  I'd be happy if the panic effect was a skill.  Bubble mass panic is really good for a free effect.  

I like the 2/4 idea; but do you think if they were 2/4 and nothing else changes, would they fall in line with the rest of the list, or still make up more than half the points of Uthuk units in most lists?

I don't think you need all of his suggestions, but I don't think 2/4 is enough.  To me, 2/4 and skill to bubble panic seems right on.  Makes you work a little for those re-rolls.

 

I would start there. That and some OP objectives that require armies to spread out would make me cut way back on them. 

 

35 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

I'm open to a better hero to run.  Beastmaster and Goremaw didn't playtest so great as they were surprisingly weak without their uniques, and overly complex to explain.  Kethra tested surprisingly strong wither her ability to give spines to almost everyone on the battlefield (her artillery wasn't actually too bad, which shocked me).

Hm. I hadn’t considered her army buff. I’d still take her before Ravos. I would really need to ponder this one.

 

Gorgemaw needs upgrades on nearby units and on himself to shine. Demo game makes scout worthless...

Beastmaster doesn’t seem ideal as I don’t want to introduce a lot of movement shenanigans in Demo games. Besides that he seems (on paper) great for demo games  

Ravos is condensed force that takes a lot of effort to learn to fight. I don’t think I’m thrilled with him having been the core hero. 

 

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13 hours ago, Church14 said:

Lazy direct damage? Like Maegan’s “lazy” splash damage? Or Kari’s splash? Both of which are damage, not wounds, so they work equally well against all targets. Ravos does wounds and suffers against 1/1 armies. 

Just run him without Hunger. He doesn’t seem busted or nearly as scary. It isn’t Ravos that is your issue. It is his one unique. 

Kari's on my hit list for a reason. Her surge ability is way overpowered, and poorly designed to boot. Maegan hasn't been throwing up red flags that I've seen. Insatiable Hunger IS a sensible target for balance patching though, good point.

7 hours ago, Suhawk75 said:

Having played/ bought X-wing 1ed until wave 14 or so (ie towards the end) I’m extremely concerned by the idea of extensive and growing errata.

By all means clarify how cards work through FAQ (for example the Darnati rerolls question) but changing the function of cards just makes the game more complex (and less accessible).

Given we’re trying to grow the game community I’m not sure added complexity is the way forward.

You're not wrong, but the thing is we're already in a bad spot. We've all seen the anecdotes of Uthuk sweeping local metas and drying up interest, and Vorun'thul is primed to leave a bad taste in your mouth. Daqan gunlines aren't very interactive, and largely come down to "did I break the blockers in time". Poor health at the competitive level has implications all the way down - the game is going for the niche of mechanically sound fantasy rank & flank, but in its current state I have difficulty recommending it to locals.

5 hours ago, TheWiseGuy said:

I like this lost a lot. I just want reanimates -1 charge modifier removed. It's time. Maybe they needed it in the core, but now?

The turning charge is better in most cases than a straight charge would be anyway, so I agree that the -1 on the straight is pointless. Dial changes, however, seem virtually impossible, so we're probably stuck with them. That includes, to a lesser extent, the printed health and defense of each unit.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

It doesn’t break any design rules whatsoever. I’ve said enough in the worlds results thread about this combo. It isn’t busted or OP, just potent in the right hands and it has counter play.

Pre-worlds I didn’t hear jack about Warsprinter being too good. I did hear some comments post worlds about how people tried it and moved on. Now I am hearing complaints. Seems like it is less the card and more that I demonstrated how it can really be used  

Your solution to Threshers being a little too points efficient is to eliminate them as a viable unit?

First, you want to reduce Scuttling down to an upgrade that lets you get an exhaust to use a gimped Shift one sideways or to apply a stun. Go take a look at the top Uthuk players. We generally only use it once to twice a game anyway. This isn’t a nerf that makes a difference.

Devouring Maws 5 points? Why? What broken list has arrived with this card? What significant evidence is there that this is a problem in any way? It’s a nice thematic card that isn’t OP in any real way. 

Remove AOE Panic. Sure, we then make Threshers the only siege unit that isn’t applying an effect. We also make their panic reroll basically nonexistent as it’s a ***** to reliably put panics in enemy units. You would simultaneously make them stop acting like a siege unit and give them worse offense than Rune Golems. 

Then increase points? This isn’t calculated, pragmatic game design / balance suggestions. It feels like vindictiveness. 

How about we toss out every one one of your suggestions and just try out Threshers with the single change of dropping them to a 2/4 stat line. Seriously, that’s gonna make a big difference, is easiest to errata, and doesn’t strip threshers of every useful trait. 

When I say "design rules" I mean a set of guidelines that keep the game interactive. Charge 7 and reform+charge at I3 are the things that break my imagined rules, though fight+charge is also a contender. Not relevant to Warsprinter, but disengaging from combat before I5 is another line that is increasingly being crossed and quite bad for the health of the game.

Obviously you're better at the game than I am, but I really think you're being disingenuous when discussing the Scuttle's power level. It abuses terrain, is a vastly better Flank Guards than Flank Guards is, provides minor general positional utility at the best possible timing, AND has the stun. It needs to be gutted. Once that's done, Devouring Maws' relative power goes up, and it is already head and shoulders better than every other healing option in game. 

Threshers are also the only siege unit that attacks at 4, the only siege unit with a double icon enhance modifier, the only siege unit with a skill bonus action. Why should they also have a very powerful AoE panic engine? The point cost increase is speculative, but keep in mind that they're still singularly efficient, especially at 2x1. 2/4 would be pretty cool, but health and defense is printed on the dial, so I consider it verboten.

2 hours ago, TheWiseGuy said:

Preach! Also reanimates upgrade slots are not great. Give us armor. Take away the -1 charge modifier

Upgrade slots are an interesting one, and seem semi-random, at least for core set units. Spearmen have no Training slot, so can't do neat simultaneous orders builds, Oathsworn have no musician, etc. Equipment is one of the worst to miss out on though, and Regenerate gets real juicy with defense buffs. Good consideration.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

I have found Rune Golems could use an extra wound and maybe something to make them more consistent. 

An extra wound WOULD be sweet, but with Vitality tokens out in the wild I don't think it's an option. Overall I like their design, and they're pretty powerful in a defensive blocker role - their body is decent and needs to be chewed through, and sometimes they go crazy and punch way up. Dropping two stun tokens before they die can be amazing as well. I think the thing I like least about them is how vulnerable they feel when they attack, and how often it forces you to just skill.

 

Another quality idea from @Rattt is a sweeping change to the RRG to prevent anyone entering or exiting terrain outside of their own activation. The cat's out of the bag on out of activation moves, and it frankly breaks terrain, turning it into a convenient little gravity well to hop through rather than a genuine obstacle. Terrain has a lot of good stuff going for it, and the going through slowly vs going around is classic wargame design, and creates good, interesting gameplay. Even if all factions get equal access to these sorts of effects and the game is perfectly balanced, terrain not acting like terrain is bad.

Edited by Bhelliom

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1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Pre-worlds I didn’t hear jack about Warsprinter being too good. I did hear some comments post worlds about how people tried it and moved on. Now I am hearing complaints. Seems like it is less the card and more that I demonstrated how it can really be used  

 

This isn't exactly true. Warsprinter was on a lot of people's radar from pretty early on:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/280411-what-makes-the-uthuk-yllan-strong/?tab=comments#comment-3430197

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/278961-how-would-an-overpowered-faction-be-handled/?tab=comments#comment-3398985

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/278340-serk-stars/?do=findComment&comment=3386006

These are just a few of the threads I found with a quick search.

I think it hasn't gotten as much attention as spined threshers because spined threshers are a bigger problem.  If you nerfed them I suspect people would see more warsprinter across the table.

I can't believe I'm saying it, but making spined threshers a 2/4 might be too severe a nerf.  Honestly I would prefer a points tweak anyway.  They should just start with a small increase across the board. Something like 1[19], 2[31], 4[50], 6[74].  After that we can see if they are still a problem or if other problems appear.

@werdnaegni how hard would it be to do an alternative TableTopAdmiral that has experimental points tweaks?  Would anyone else be willing to try out some simple point-change based balanced adjustments in their local meta and see how it feels?

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44 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I don’t think I’m thrilled with him having been the core hero.

Cheers to that!

2 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

how hard would it be to do an alternative TableTopAdmiral that has experimental points tweaks? 

I just keep a spreadsheet, it's simple and complex enough for at home testing.

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The biggest problem I have with nerfs is that we have such a small sample size that local experience skews can be quite large and drastic.   And having sat down and looked at the math of how siege units stack up, there is a very thin line between then, probably much thinner than most proposing nerfs realize.

it is also hard to tell exactly when the community just hasn’t figured out how to deal with certain units.  I suspect threshers need a little bit done, but some proposals are the entire kitchen sink.

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44 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

I just keep a spreadsheet, it's simple and complex enough for at home testing.

This is a good idea. However I prefer the idea of having community buy in and a larger sample size. If everyone involved agrees to a few small point changes and we all just play with those same tweaks for a month or two we might actually get somewhere.  

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29 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

The biggest problem I have with nerfs is that we have such a small sample size that local experience skews can be quite large and drastic.   And having sat down and looked at the math of how siege units stack up, there is a very thin line between then, probably much thinner than most proposing nerfs realize.

it is also hard to tell exactly when the community just hasn’t figured out how to deal with certain units.  I suspect threshers need a little bit done, but some proposals are the entire kitchen sink.

Jukey and I could probably test out proposed ideas if people really want them. We’ve done some side-by-side tracking of nerfs. For Insatiable Hunger, I tracked the wounds he actually took on table and the wounds he would have taken with the resequencing on his unit card.  

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22 hours ago, Vergilius said:

The biggest problem I have with nerfs is that we have such a small sample size that local experience skews can be quite large and drastic.   And having sat down and looked at the math of how siege units stack up, there is a very thin line between then, probably much thinner than most proposing nerfs realize.

it is also hard to tell exactly when the community just hasn’t figured out how to deal with certain units.  I suspect threshers need a little bit done, but some proposals are the entire kitchen sink.

In a perfect world, you're probably right, but we don't live in a perfect world. More data would be great, but we're not going to get it if the perception of poor balance drives players away. Worlds HAS to be our most significant case study because it's all we've got. The fact that it corroborates stories from countless local metas is telling. How many indicators does it take?

I'd be very interested to see how you compared them. As far as I'm concerned, siege units in particular bring too much curious utility to bear direct numbers comparisons - how do you assess the value of making your opponent worry about a speed 4 charge next turn? Slithering 3 at 3 to block a charge lane? Seems to me that Spined Threshers compare more directly to non-siege units - white skill modifier, fight at 4, fairly normal maneuver options.

Edited by Bhelliom

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2 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Spined Threshers compare more directly to non-siege units - white skill modifier, fight at 4, fairly normal maneuver options.

Jukey and I talked about this last night. Obscenes compared to other siege and Threshers compare more to Wraiths, Ventala, etc as a distillation of the parent faction’s identity. 

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18 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

In a perfect world, you're probably right, but we don't live in a perfect world. More data would be great, but we're not going to get it if the perception of poor balance drives players away. Worlds HAS to be our most significant case study because it's all we've got. The fact that it corroborates stories from countless local metas is telling. How many indicators does it take?

I'd be very interested to see how you compared them. As far as I'm concerned, siege units especially being too much curious utility to bear direct numbers comparisons - how do you assess the value of making your opponent worry about a speed 4 charge next turn? Slithering 3 at 3 to block a charge lane? Seems to me that Spined Threshers compare more directly to non-siege units - white skill modifier, fight at 4, fairly normal maneuver options.

To answer this in brief and answer more fully when I’m at home and at a computer with my excel spreadsheets and  have time to write more fully, I think it partly comes down to price points and different units have different functions at different sizes, and different levels of effectiveness therein.  For example, 1x1 scions are a utility blocker, while the 2x2 has quite a bit of versatility to it.

To be clear, I’m not in the do-nothing camp, I just find a significant amount of discussion to be of a “let’s nerf these six things.”  It’s a situation where I think uthuk players themselves are ok with baby changes.

i wonder if we can come up with some proposals that are more in line with FFG has done in the past.  Those are the things I’d be more inclined to test.  Or is there a game where they really did something extreme?

Edited by Vergilius

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17 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Once that's done, Devouring Maws' relative power goes up, and it is already head and shoulders better than every other healing option in game. 

Honestly I think that healing abilities tend to be too expensive.  Regenerative Magic and Fertile Soil in particular should be cheaper in my mind.

17 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Not relevant to Warsprinter, but disengaging from combat before I5 is another line that is increasingly being crossed and quite bad for the health of the game.

I don't agree here.  These situations require a lot of thought and the ability to read your opponent, two of my favorite parts of playing Runewars. 

Just looking at the cat bounce, you have to look at how the next round will play out before you dial it in.  Can I out charge this unit?  Who as initiative next round?  As for units that can never out-charge the Leonx, the cat-bounce is more likely to occur and so they can predict it more effectively and dial in a charge instead.  

Situations like these where it's what decision you make and not the runes or the dice that determines the outcome are amazing to me.  Runewars needs more of these situations, not less.

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2 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Kari's on my hit list for a reason. Her surge ability is way overpowered, and poorly designed to boot. 

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:45 AM, Bhelliom said:

Kari: ...Her ability to throw knives out of combat can be unreasonably oppressive

Maybe it makes me an *******, but I really couldn't take anything in this post seriously after reading this... Have you played daqan much?

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11 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

Maybe it makes me an *******, but I really couldn't take anything in this post seriously after reading this... Have you played daqan much?

Hey Tony, meet Luke -- you played next to each other during our 4x4 match :) (and you were both Daqan - with Kari and BaronZ in your lists!)

Edited by Glucose98

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37 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

To be clear, I’m not in the do-nothing camp, I just find a significant amount of discussion to be of a “let’s nerf these six things.”  It’s a situation where I think uthuk players themselves are ok with baby changes.

i wonder if we can come up with some proposals that are more in line with FFG has done in the past.  Those are the things I’d be more inclined to test.  Or is there a game where they really did something extreme?

I mean, I am literally wishlisting, so it's not like I expect to see these changes. I consider ANY card errata extremely unlikely, which means we're probably stuck with new release power creep to balance things out. It bums me out.

RRG updates thankfully ARE something they can do quite easily, so I really hope they make terrain less prone to abuse.

45 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

Honestly I think that healing abilities tend to be too expensive.  Regenerative Magic and Fertile Soil in particular should be cheaper in my mind.

I don't agree here.  These situations require a lot of thought and the ability to read your opponent, two of my favorite parts of playing Runewars. 

Just looking at the cat bounce, you have to look at how the next round will play out before you dial it in.  Can I out charge this unit?  Who as initiative next round?  As for units that can never out-charge the Leonx, the cat-bounce is more likely to occur and so they can predict it more effectively and dial in a charge instead.  

Situations like these where it's what decision you make and not the runes or the dice that determines the outcome are amazing to me.  Runewars needs more of these situations, not less.

Cat bounce is actually one I have no problem with! It is (was) fairly unique to Leonx, and takes their whole activation to end one unit away from where they started. Etharyon, Entrancing Gaze, Th'uk Tar, and Vorun'thul aren't so restrained. Let us hope that Daqan never gets anything like that, or they could plausibly fight and then escape at I3.

5 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

Maybe it makes me an *******, but I really couldn't take anything in this post seriously after reading this... Have you played daqan much?

Almost exclusively. Took Nationals and two Regionals with them (pacific northwest is a pretty small meta, so I don't read much into this), and placed best in faction at Worlds (6th overall, and by the tiniest MOV difference). I'm not amazing, but I spend an unreasonable amount of time thinking about Daqan units. Kari is starting to struggle a little in the modern environment because of her very "core set era" dial, but she can spike so hard and so flexibly off of her surge ability. I want to see her power redistributed. 

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I don't understand how you could think her knife ability is that good then. I'm sorry, but I really don't. I've been playing her for over 2 years now, and I have never once thought that her ability was even a little OP. If you didn't have to take a squishy hero into the middle of melee, and attack at a 4 (later than a bunch of other heroes and even a few units) to do it, then yeah. But, you do have to do those things,which means its very hard to get off without her getting rocked right back... as it should be. How exactly is it OP?

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4 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

I don't understand how you could think her knife ability is that good then. I'm sorry, but I really don't. I've been playing her for over 2 years now, and I have never once thought that her ability was even a little OP. If you didn't have to take a squishy hero into the middle of melee, and attack at a 4 (later than a bunch of other heroes and even a few units) to do it, then yeah. But, you do have to do those things,which means its very hard to get off without her getting rocked right back... as it should be. How exactly is it OP?

I think it's pretty strong embedded in some scouts.  By herself, I'm not sure it's as good.  Was it better with the Baron Z vitality token?  That's been a recent change.

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12 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

I think it's pretty strong embedded in some scouts.  By herself, I'm not sure it's as good.  Was it better with the Baron Z vitality token?  That's been a recent change.

It has been a bit better. He has been making a good bunch of things better IMO. I've been running them both together for a bit now, and he helps her not insta-die, but against a good opponent, you still won't get her ability off more than 1-2 times per game, and the two of them together in a list can get spendy fast. I've found that Wraith Step helps keep you alive once you are engaged, but then that takes up turns you are not doing anything offensive. 

I really don't mean to sound so combative, its just that seeing someone claim her ability is TOO powerful just seems super hyperbolic to me, which makes me wonder about how seriously to take anything else on that list.

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I think Rune Golems with protect 1(or protect bluerunes) goes a long way.  It's so easy to do 4 damage that they just drop too fast.

The dial is by far the worst in the game.  So few options.  Throw in a yellow march 3, with a yellow bank.  Can't tie it into a charge, but at least you can move a little quicker across the table.

Yeah, I get that being totally F'd in the movement phase is the "theme" for rune golems, but it really does cripple them.

 

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20 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

I don't understand how you could think her knife ability is that good then. I'm sorry, but I really don't. I've been playing her for over 2 years now, and I have never once thought that her ability was even a little OP. If you didn't have to take a squishy hero into the middle of melee, and attack at a 4 (later than a bunch of other heroes and even a few units) to do it, then yeah. But, you do have to do those things,which means its very hard to get off without her getting rocked right back... as it should be. How exactly is it OP?

2 damage per surge is good by any standard, it ignores line of sight, can be bunched and split as you see fit, and ignores defensive tech. Getting good use out of it can sure be difficult, but she exerts huge board pressure - if your opponent ever puts anything non-threatening near her, she uses it as a lightning rod. 

20 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

I think it's pretty strong embedded in some scouts.  By herself, I'm not sure it's as good.  Was it better with the Baron Z vitality token?  That's been a recent change.

The Baron and embedding in Scouts are good ways to deliver the ability, for sure.

11 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Suddenly Latari Training pops to mind. A way to jog in while sniping figures. 

I hate this upgrade because every time I take it it's halfway useless, then when I don't have it I want it. At 3-4 points I'd probably staple it to her card.

17 minutes ago, TallTonyB said:

I really don't mean to sound so combative, its just that seeing someone claim her ability is TOO powerful just seems super hyperbolic to me, which makes me wonder about how seriously to take anything else on that list.

There's certainly something to be said for different metas. If nothing else, it can create a REAL bad experience for new players. 

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2 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

I hate this upgrade because every time I take it it's halfway useless, then when I don't have it I want it. At 3-4 points I'd probably staple it to her card.

This I agree with. It's been big for me a handful of times ever, but mostly just isn't for how expensive it is. Also, the few times I've really liked it, I've also been using heartseeker. Now that is an expensive Kari.

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4 hours ago, Church14 said:

Suddenly Latari Training pops to mind. A way to jog in while sniping figures. 

If it was 3 points cough insatiable hunger cough it would be strong. I have made this point before, it is 6 points and you need to spend surges to use. Insatiable 3, and you can just use it if you want. 3 points and you would see probably see this on the board.  Attacking at I4 makes a concern to get her into combat anywhere but a flank.

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