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Bhelliom

Luke's balance wishlist

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Ok, I'm gonna make the bold claim that the balance in this game, both internal and external, is getting to be on the mediocre side, and I think it has and will really strangle the game's future if it's not addressed! Here I will go over my vision of how to fix it! I don't expect any of this to happen because FFG's style is to balance by releasing new units, but Tie Defender style fix upgrades certainly aren't out of the question. No reason this game couldn't also have Titles.

I'm staying away from dial changes, because they're simply too logistically difficult to expect. 

Daqan:

Kari: shooting at I2 is unique and incredibly powerful, and the white rally makes her a natural fit for Fortuna's. Her ability to know knives out of combat can be unreasonably oppressive, circumventing most defensive tech and affecting a huge area. At the same time, her dial is quite clumsy for an agile scout on foot. Suggestion: reduce the range of the daggers to 1-3, give her a free reform when she performs a march or shift. Might still be too strong, but feels like a good way to smooth her out. 

Hawthorne: lessons of seragart was probably a mistake to print, fundamentally changes the math of the game. His tanky build is cool, but he's simply too easy to ignore. Suggestion: limit the tray reconfiguration to ONE unit, give him precise or the ability to spend inspiration for rerolls or lethal or something. He needs some kind of teeth. 

Zachareth: complicated, kinda hate his dial, probably doesn't need changes, I wouldn't touch him.

Oathsworn: feel a little under the curve right now, but are probably fine once the stronger stuff is brought down a peg. Attack at I3 with defense mod forgives a LOT of sins.

Rune Golems: lamented as they often are, I kinda like their design, and they are useful to a certain extent. I could see a reroll if the target has a stun token, but probably just a cost reduction is the best bet, especially on the 4 and 6 tray, which are insane. I also have some spicier ideas.

Spearmen: the dial is kind of a masterpiece, and lots of strong upgrades. My ideal fix would probably come as a new upgrade that introduces a minigame of alternating increased defense and offense, but generally speaking I'd like to decrease the cost of the 4 and 9 tray, while increasing the cost of front line Rune Golem. There is no world in which you take a 9 tray without also taking the heavy upgrade, and maybe there should be. As for the 4 tray, I really don't think they properly appraised the marginal value of those two trays. I'd also take a slight decrease on the 6 tray, but that's way less crucial. 

Heavy crossbowmen: too op, please nerf. The 3x1 is a perfect wishlist unit, and simply too efficient for its cost. They have a lot of cool and fun gameplay that I don't want to take away, so I would just make the 3 tray cost 3-5 points more. Easy. Or maybe take away the Equipment slot, I could get behind that.

Scouts: I haven't yet played them much, but they seem a little on the expensive side. The Scout keyword is very hard to appraise, and white reforms are always great, but 21 points is a LOT for two trays of infantry. Probably best to leave the 6 tray alone because of weird champion synergies, but I think the 2 and 4 tray options could drop a couple points. 

 

Waiqar:

Ardus: host of crows is another delicate one, but he himself is too bad on the table to be worth bringing, ever. Dimodian was a very cool start, but without a fresh dial... Drop him down to 32 points, then he can actually be worth bringing in specific upgrade heavy builds. A commander-style unique would also be cool.

Ankaur Maro: too expensive, too squishy, too bad at summoning, shooting at six is uniquely bad. Dropping him to 34 points goes a long way to fixing things, but also changing the wording of his summoning ability to make elite waiqar infantry a future option would be nice. 

Vorun'thul: lord op indeed. Waiqar needed the help, but goodness gracious he's oppressive. I'm not even sure what to suggest; hitting the lethal and protected to just be 1 always would help, making the transform out of cursed form only range 1 would make him way easier to counterattack, requiring line of sight to the unit he jumps on would be a very sensible reduction to his offensive power. 

Reanimate archers: I don't have strong feelings here, they could probably be a little cheaper or get regeneration, but they're not on my priority list. The Raven Banner in an interesting unique faction strength, which I like.

Carrion lancers: pretty much perfect in my eyes. Maybe let them spit into combat? 

Reanimates: probably lingering dead should just be baseline. Maybe a points reduction, I dunno. My waiqar opponent tells me they under perform and I trust him, but they also fight pretty well at 3x2 for fairly cheap?

Death knights: strong, expensive, inefficient against low value targets. No changes needed. 

Wraiths: seem great so far, wouldn't touch them.

 

Latari:

Aside from Darnati, Latari units seem to be designed with a specific task in mind, and mostly they do them very well. Maybe the 2x1 deepwoods are a hair too cheap, but I do not have real complaints here. Are Darnati good? They don't seem very good. Hedge Shroud sure looks like it's great on Darnati, golly.

 

Uthuk:

Ravos: where do you start. Make his melee surge ability hit ALL units at range 1 and force the automatic wound at the end phase to happen before insatiable hunger, and we've gone a long way towards mitigating the worst of it. Make the wrecking ball a little more indiscriminate! 

Kethra: probably fine, interesting utility, infinite range on her skill makes me a little nervous but it's not reliable so whatever.

Th'uk tar: way too early to tell! Out of activation movement sure is a red flag though isn't it!

Berserkers: the warsprinter+aggressive combo is a problem, I'm saying it. Charging seven, charging 360 degrees, it's bad, and breaks core design rules. Probably make warsprinter exhaust, cost more points. 

Flesh rippers: seem pretty fine, why is the 6 tray so expensive? Drop it 55-58 and see what happens!

Spined threshers: we've been over this, they do way too much for too little. Make scuttling horror exhaust to shift, not be able to enter or exit terrain, not be able to disengage, then make devouring maws 5 points, THEN take away their AoE panic, and they might be ok. 2x1 may still need a points hit, but I'm willing to take it slow. 

Viper legion: I'm a little worried about ritual venom, but it's certainly too early to tell.

Obscenes: I like the design, don't foresee any issues. Probably a good candidate for buffs if the above changes knock Uthuk down too hard.

Edited by Bhelliom

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I agree with  much in your list (but not all ;) Though I realize that I have not played competetively as I know you have.

I personally would be happy with just getting the worst outliers (Uthuk unique upgrades, Waiqar's blight-game, Ankaur) "back on the curve".

I realize my post below on the same subject is a little bit outdated due to the new releases since written.

 

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I agree on the vast majority of your points.

 

For Waiqar, I think Reanimates should be cheaper. It feels thematic that the undead should outnumber their opponents. It also helps balance out other parts of your list.

 

Reanimate Archers deserve Regeneration. Because... they're Reanimates... with bows...

 

I'm OK with Maro being squishy and high skill to play. But I agree that his Resurrection ability is lackluster.

 

Ardus has been beaten to (un)death but he needs a later move, a later attack, and/or a skill that causes a friendly unit to activate immediately.

My two cents.

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13 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Rune golems: lamented as they often are, I kinda like their design, and they are useful to a certain extent. I could see a reroll if the target has a stun token, but probably just a cost reduction is the best bet, especially on the 4 and 6 tray, which are insane. 

And a unique spot with a couple of unique upgrades to make two styles of golems.  This would keep them up with Scions, Obscenes, and Threshers.

 

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I actually think balance is in a pretty good spot, minus some of the Uthuk power issues that have been noted elsewhere.  I do agree with the sentiment behind a lot of your wish list.

Hawthorne - I am fine with how he comes out of the box, but would like there to be a reasonably competitive damage Hawthorne build.  If you've never tried sweeping strikes + dawnblade, you might be surprised at the value you can get out of it.  However, it is a bit of an overcosted combo (15 pts) considering it's not too hard to play around.  I think lowering the cost of dawn blade and sweeping strikes both would be reasonable and possibly make a viable damage-thorne build.

Rune Golems - I agree they could use a slight cost decrease to mitigate their bad dial.  I also agree that they have great design flavor that I would like to see kept in tact.

Spearmen -  I would like to see some points shifting such that the front line golem is not automatic.  In particular, I would like to see enough of a point difference between the front line and support golem to make the support golem viable.  Making the 9 tray of spearmen 57 points and raising the cost of the front line golem to 9 points would possibly be enough.  Might be reasonable to lower the cost of the support golem to 5 as well.

Oathsworn - I disagree here.  They are a great unit for their cost that can punch above their weightclass when played correctly, but with considerable weaknesses.  In particular, their ability to out charge things and then get an extra hit off at Init 3 next round allows them to take on bigger units regularly.

Heavy Crossbowmen - An obviously good unit, but I don't think they are overpowered.  I would like to see the 2x1 made a viable option somehow. Right now there really is no reason to even have 2x1 of xbowmen be a thing except to make a box of them playable by itself.  Maybe a small cost decrease to 17 points?  Would anyone take a 2x1 of xbows for 17 when you can take 3x1 for 27?

Scouts - They looked expensive to me at first glance... however, once you do the math on their damage you realize that having a built in Master Crafted Weapons and two blue dice (plus surge on the dial) is more average damage than a red and a blue.  Also, Scout is a really good ability.  In a game where you only get 8 moves, a unit that gets a free move before everything else is really good.

Ardus - I actually think he's fine now.  I used to think he was the worst hero in the game... but I've come to realize that Host of Crows is a lot better than I was giving it credit for.  3x1 Wraiths with raven tabards, 3x2 reanimates with Vorun'Thul the Cursed embedded, 2x1 of Death Knights with dispatch runner, 2x2 Reanimates with Maro embedded, 2x1 Reanimate Archers with Rank Discipline and Tempered Steel... these are just some of the great units you can only build with Ardus.

Maro - Yeah, he's a little weak for his cost, but he's really good with violent forces.  I would like to see a change that makes running him without any upgrades more viable.  40 points for a self damaging unit that sometimes just can't shoot is a little painful.  Even just giving his attack dice a minimum of 1 would still give him an opportunity to dial in a mortal and roll one white.  Making his raising better might be too much though...

Vorun'Thul - I think making him always protected 1 would be enough.  His ability to just ignore 4 damage is what makes him oppressive in my mind.

Reanimate Archers getting regenerate - I don't actually think they need it, but I don't think it's a big enough buff to break them either.  I just want it for flavor reasons.

Reanimates - They are pretty good at 6 trays and up.  However, they are the only line infantry unit in the game that I struggle to figure out why/when I would ever run a 2x1.  I want to run a shambling horde of them, but every time I start to build the list I can't figure out why I wouldn't just run a bunch of carrion lancers instead.  I would like to see the 2x1 dropped in cost to 14 points to make it feasible... probably wouldn't break the game... probably...

Spined Threshers - While I believe this unit is the number one balance issue in the game, I think all your changes together is a bit heavy handed.  Devouring maws feels appropriately costed to me (side note: fertile soil needs a cost reduction).  It doesn't see much play out here (probably because scuttling is so good).  If you just raised the price of the 2x1 and scuttling horrors they would probably be alright.  I would start there and see where it goes.

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36 minutes ago, QuickWhit said:

, I think all your changes together is a bit heavy handed.  Devouring maws feels appropriately costed to me (side note: fertile soil needs a cost reduction).  It doesn't see much play out here (probably because scuttling is so good).  If you just raised the price of the 2x1 and scuttling horrors they would probably be alright.  I would start there and see where it goes.

This is my reaction as well.  In game design, there has to be license to have a dud unit or upgrade here and there, do not everything has to be immediately viable.  Most game design also leaves room for backwards compatible upgrade cards to affect the game.  And in some cases, the right upgrade card might change a unit entirely.

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14 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Ravos: where do you start. Make his melee surge ability hit ALL units at range 1 and force the automatic wound at the end phase to happen before insatiable hunger, and we've gone a long way towards mitigating the worst of it.

I don't think I've ever heard this idea before, but it's brilliant! Makes playing Ravos nuanced and exciting!

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15 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

Ravos: where do you start. Make his melee surge ability hit ALL units at range 1 and force the automatic wound at the end phase to happen before insatiable hunger, and we've gone a long way towards mitigating the worst of it.

He also shouldn't be precise.  We playtested some nerfs and taking away precise and making the wound happen before insatiable hunger go a long way to helping.

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57 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

He also shouldn't be precise.  We playtested some nerfs and taking away precise and making the wound happen before insatiable hunger go a long way to helping.

That would be too much. He’s 43-50 points of just melee. Making him bad, or even just unexceptional, at melee makes him pointless. 

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2 hours ago, Church14 said:

That would be too much. He’s 43-50 points of just melee. Making him bad, or even just unexceptional, at melee makes him pointless. 

Melee and lazy direct damage.  Also after reading about obscenes I don’t think precise themes well either.  I get brutal, but they don’t really come of as combat trained so much as wreckless lawn mowers.

Edited by flightmaster101

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2 hours ago, flightmaster101 said:

Melee and lazy direct damage.  Also after reading about obscenes I don’t think precise themes well either.  I get brutal, but they don’t really come of as combat trained so much as wreckless lawn mowers.

Ravos is also the best. The fastest, strongest, smartest of the bunch. Precise isn’t a stretch.

 

Lazy direct damage? Like Maegan’s “lazy” splash damage? Or Kari’s splash? Both of which are damage, not wounds, so they work equally well against all targets. Ravos does wounds and suffers against 1/1 armies. 

 

Just run him without Hunger. He doesn’t seem busted or nearly as scary. It isn’t Ravos that is your issue. It is his one unique. 

Edited by Church14

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Having played/ bought X-wing 1ed until wave 14 or so (ie towards the end) I’m extremely concerned by the idea of extensive and growing errata.

By all means clarify how cards work through FAQ (for example the Darnati rerolls question) but changing the function of cards just makes the game more complex (and less accessible).

Given we’re trying to grow the game community I’m not sure added complexity is the way forward.

Leave the card text (largely) alone IMO (by all means errata the most egregious examples down but not so that every new player rocking up at a tournament needs to know the majority of a 40 page FAQ)

If there is an imbalance at tournament level I think this could also be resolved by having points tweaked in the FAQ.

Points changes need to be subtle, considered and limited. The casual and tournament games shouldn’t be totally divorced from each other (although higher level tournaments need to clarify  that they will be running the FAQ x.x points adjustments)

Ideally we’d have an App but I don’t see FFG going that way for such a minor IP

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1 hour ago, Suhawk75 said:

Ideally we’d have an App but I don’t see FFG going that way for such a minor IP

On the other hand, an app or website that did nothing but display and calculate point costs for armies would be easy to create and update, so that they just might do it anyway. 

It's the inevitable requests for more bells and whistles that start creating issues.

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10 hours ago, Church14 said:

Lazy direct damage? Like Maegan’s “lazy” splash damage? Or Kari’s splash? 

Yes, but all you have to do is be there, and direct wounding is exponentially better.  You don't even have to roll for anything, and no amount of armor can stop it.  Kari is more analogous with the surge on her dial, but the requirements for Ravos to do an automatic wound are really low. 

10 hours ago, Church14 said:

Just run him without Hunger. He doesn’t seem busted or nearly as scary.

He isn't nearly as scary true, but unless hunger gets nerfed or banned its a thing to deal with.  That's why I think hunger should go off after the wound.

I've playtested a fair few games to get ready to demo the game off and not have Uthuk destroy everything.  Part of the issue is the 107 points out of the box no doubt, but out of the box Ravos is still really strong in that environment.  The only way I've been able to find a balance (being defined as either a 1-3 tray win either way) is to pull off 2 trays of berserkers, match them against daqan, and switch the lineup so Ravos is across from spearmen and not the Golem.

This had a few consequences.  1)  Ravos has less to eat and the points end up 96 Uthuk to 99 Daqan.  2) Kari only has two trays of melee to kill so her dagger throws dont go off for as many rounds as if she had 4 trays of berserkers to deal with.  (Weird, but less berserkers lined up against Kari nerfed her).  3)  The golem does much better vs the Spined Thresher than vs Ravos.

In fairness I am extrapolating what I'm seeing to a 200 point game, but brutal and precise with red white blue and the surge for wound, and the end of phase wound is quite a bit even for a hero.

Another thing to try would be changing up the spined thresher.  I dont think Ravos would nearly be as strong if the threshers weren't such a good unit as weil.  To be absolutely fair about it, I think it has a lot to do with the combination of Ravos at 2/7 and the destruction he brings paired with the 2/5 per tray of the spined threshers, how tough they can be to take down.

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On 11/12/2018 at 1:45 AM, Bhelliom said:

Berserkers: the warsprinter+aggressive combo is a problem, I'm saying it. Charging seven, charging 360 degrees, it's bad, and breaks core design rules. Probably make warsprinter exhaust, cost more points

It doesn’t break any design rules whatsoever. I’ve said enough in the worlds results thread about this combo. It isn’t busted or OP, just potent in the right hands and it has counter play.

 

Pre-worlds I didn’t hear jack about Warsprinter being too good. I did hear some comments post worlds about how people tried it and moved on. Now I am hearing complaints. Seems like it is less the card and more that I demonstrated how it can really be used  

 

On 11/12/2018 at 1:45 AM, Bhelliom said:

Spined threshers: we've been over this, they do way too much for too little. Make scuttling horror exhaust to shift, not be able to enter or exit terrain, not be able to disengage, then make devouring maws 5 points, THEN take away their AoE panic, and they might be ok. 2x1 may still need a points hit, but I'm willing to take it slow. 

Your solution to Threshers being a little too points efficient is to eliminate them as a viable unit?

First, you want to reduce Scuttling down to an upgrade that lets you get an exhaust to use a gimped Shift one sideways or to apply a stun. Go take a look at the top Uthuk players. We generally only use it once to twice a game anyway. This isn’t a nerf that makes a difference.

 

Devouring Maws 5 points? Why? What broken list has arrived with this card? What significant evidence is there that this is a problem in any way? It’s a nice thematic card that isn’t OP in any real way. 

 

Remove AOE Panic. Sure, we then make Threshers the only siege unit that isn’t applying an effect. We also make their panic reroll basically nonexistent as it’s a ***** to reliably put panics in enemy units. You would simultaneously make them stop acting like a siege unit and give them worse offense than Rune Golems. 

 

Then increase points? This isn’t calculated, pragmatic game design / balance suggestions. It feels like vindictiveness. 

 

How about we toss out every one one of your suggestions and just try out Threshers with the single change of dropping them to a 2/4 stat line. Seriously, that’s gonna make a big difference, is easiest to errata, and doesn’t strip threshers of every useful trait. 

Edited by Church14

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21 hours ago, escutcheon said:

I agree on the vast majority of your points.

 

For Waiqar, I think Reanimates should be cheaper. It feels thematic that the undead should outnumber their opponents. It also helps balance out other parts of your list.

 

Reanimate Archers deserve Regeneration. Because... they're Reanimates... with bows...

 

I'm OK with Maro being squishy and high skill to play. But I agree that his Resurrection ability is lackluster.

 

Ardus has been beaten to (un)death but he needs a later move, a later attack, and/or a skill that causes a friendly unit to activate immediately.

My two cents.

What's really terrible about Reanimates is the cost per wound isn't what it should be.  You get more wounds per point with Rippers than you do Reanimates, and almost as many with Berserkers.  The bonus abilities on those two units is vastly better than regenerate green-runes.

IMO, lingering dead should be built into reanimates; it would go a long way to express the theme of the unit.

 

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On 11/12/2018 at 2:45 AM, Bhelliom said:

Ok, I'm gonna make the bold claim that the balance in this game, both internal and external, is getting to be on the mediocre side. Here I will go over my vision of how to fix it!

I'm staying away from dial changes, because they're simply too logistically difficult to expect. 

Daqan:

Kari: shooting at I2 is unique and incredibly powerful, and the white rally makes her a natural fit for Fortuna's. Her ability to know knives out of combat can be unreasonably oppressive, circumventing most defensive tech and affecting a huge area. At the same time, her dial is quite clumsy for an agile scout on foot. Suggestion: reduce the range of the daggers to 1-3, give her a free reform when she performs a march or shift. Might still be too strong, but feels like a good way to smooth her out. 

Hawthorne: lessons of seragart was probably a mistake to print, fundamentally changes the math of the game. His tanky build is cool, but he's simply too easy to ignore. Suggestion: limit the tray reconfiguration to ONE unit, give him precise or the ability to spend inspiration for rerolls or lethal or something. He needs some kind of teeth. 

Zachareth: complicated, probably doesn't need changes, I wouldn't touch him.

Oathsworn: feel a little under the curve right now, but are probably fine once the stronger stuff is brought down a peg.

Rune golems: lamented as they often are, I kinda like their design, and they are useful to a certain extent. I could see a reroll if the target has a stun token, but probably just a cost reduction is the best bet, especially on the 4 and 6 tray, which are insane. 

Spearmen: the dial is kind of a masterpiece, and lots of strong upgrades. My ideal fix would probably come as a new upgrade that introduces a minigame of alternating increased defense and offense, but generally speaking I'd like to decrease the cost of the 4 and 9 tray, while increasing the cost of front line Rune golem. There is no world in which you take a 9 tray without also taking the heavy upgrade, and maybe there should be. As for the 4 tray, I really don't think they properly appraised the marginal value of those two trays. I'd also take a slight decrease on the 6 tray, but that's way less crucial. 

Heavy crossbowmen: too op, please nerf. The 3x1 is a perfect wishlist unit, and simply too efficient for its cost. They have a lot of cool and fun gameplay that I don't want to take away, so I would just make the 3 tray cost 3-5 points more. Easy. 

Scouts: I haven't yet played them much, but they seem a little on the expensive side. The Scout keyword is very hard to appraise, and white reforms are always great, but 21 points is a LOT for two trays of infantry. Probably best to leave the 6 tray alone because of weird champion synergies, but I think the 2 and 4 tray options could drop a couple points. 

Waiqar:

Ardus: host of crows is another delicate one, but he himself is too bad on the table to be worth bringing, ever. Dimodian was a very cool start, but without a fresh dial... Drop him down to 32 points, then he can actually be worth bringing in specific upgrade heavy builds. A commander-style unique would also be cool.

Ankaur Maro: too expensive, too squishy, too bad at summoning. Shooting at six is uniquely bad. Dropping him to 34 points goes a long way to fixing things, but also changing the wording of his summoning ability to make elite waiqar infantry a future option would be nice. 

Vorun'thul: lord op indeed. Waiqar needed the help, but goodness gracious he's oppressive. I'm not even sure what to suggest; hitting the lethal and protected to just be 1 always would help, making the transform out of cursed form only range 1 would make him way easier to counterattack, requiring line of sight to the unit he jumps on would be a very sensible reduction to his offensive power. 

Reanimate archers: I don't have strong feelings here, they could probably be a little cheaper or get regeneration, but they're not on my priority list. 

Carrion lancers: pretty much perfect in my eyes. Maybe let them spit into combat? 

Reanimates: probably lingering dead should just be baseline. Maybe a points reduction, I dunno. My waiqar opponent tells me they under perform and I trust him, but they also fight pretty well at 3x2 for fairly cheap?

Death knights: strong, expensive, inefficient against low value targets. No changes needed. 

Wraiths: seem great so far, wouldn't touch them.

Latari: aside from darnati, latari units seem to be designed with a specific task in mind, and mostly they do them very well. Maybe the 2x1 deepwoods are a hair too cheap, but I do not have real complaints here.

Uthuk:

Ravos: where do you start. Make his melee surge ability hit ALL units at range 1 and force the automatic wound at the end phase to happen before insatiable hunger, and we've gone a long way towards mitigating the worst of it.

Kethra: probably fine, interesting utility, infinite range on her skill makes me a little nervous but it's not reliable so whatever.

Th'uk tar: way too early to tell!

Berserkers: the warsprinter+aggressive combo is a problem, I'm saying it. Charging seven, charging 360 degrees, it's bad, and breaks core design rules. Probably make warsprinter exhaust, cost more points. 

Flesh rippers: seem pretty fine, 6 tray is maybe a little too expensive?

Spined threshers: we've been over this, they do way too much for too little. Make scuttling horror exhaust to shift, not be able to enter or exit terrain, not be able to disengage, then make devouring maws 5 points, THEN take away their AoE panic, and they might be ok. 2x1 may still need a points hit, but I'm willing to take it slow. 

Viper legion: I'm a little worried about ritual venom, but it's certainly too early to tell.

Obacenes: I like the design, we'll see where they sit. 

If YouTube has taught me anything, it's that the internet is not a friendly place. Thank you Luke for being brave enough to share your thoughtful opinion on balance issues. While I don't agree with some I like a lot! I'm sorry if you get attacked by others for expressing your views :)

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3 minutes ago, Darth Matthew said:

What's really terrible about Reanimates is the cost per wound isn't what it should be.  You get more wounds per point with Rippers than you do Reanimates, and almost as many with Berserkers.  The bonus abilities on those two units is vastly better than regenerate green-runes.

IMO, lingering dead should be built into reanimates; it would go a long way to express the theme of the unit. Low

Preach! Also reanimates upgrade slots are not great. Give us armor. Take away the -1 charge modifier

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2 minutes ago, Church14 said:

It doesn’t break any design rules whatsoever. I’ve said enough in the worlds results thread about this combo. It isn’t busted or OP, just potent in the right hands and it has counter play.

 

Pre-worlds I didn’t hear jack about Warsprinter being too good. I did hear some comments post worlds about how people tried it and moved on. Now I am hearing complaints. Seems like it is less the card and more that I demonstrated how it can really be used  

 

Your solution to Threshers being a little too points efficient is to eliminate them as a viable unit?

First, you want to reduce Scuttling down to an upgrade that lets you get an exhaust to use a gimped Shift one sideways or to apply a stun. Go take a look at the top Uthuk players. We generally only use it once to twice a game anyway. This isn’t a nerf that makes a difference.

 

Devouring Maws 5 points? Why? What broken list has arrived with this card? What significant evidence is there that this is a problem in any way? It’s a nice thematic card that isn’t OP in any real way. 

 

Remove AOE Panic. Sure, we then make Threshers the only siege unit that isn’t applying an effect. We also make their panic reroll basically nonexistent as it’s a ***** to reliably put panics in enemy units. You would simultaneously make them stop acting like a siege unit and give them worse offense than Rune Golems. 

 

Then increase points? This isn’t calculated, pragmatic game design / balance suggestions. It feels like vindictiveness. 

 

How about we toss out every one one of your suggestions and just try out Threshers with the single change of dropping them to a 2/4 stat line. Seriously, that’s gonna make a big difference, is easiest to errata, and doesn’t strip threshers if every useful trait. 

I like 2/4.   That allows 3 hits w/ threat 3 to knock one down (which is a big deal) 

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29 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Yes, but all you have to do is be there, and direct wounding is exponentially better.  You don't even have to roll for anything, and no amount of armor can stop it.  Kari is more analogous with the surge on her dial, but the requirements for Ravos to do an automatic wound are really low. 

That’s not what exponentially means.

 

Direct wounding is not always better. There are plenty of moments where a unique surge to cause 2 damage to all units in range 1 would be much better. So it’s not a flat “better” as it is “better against armor.”

 

Sure, it isn’t too hard to trigger. It does a lot of damage if units are packed tight. Kari does a lot of damage even in pretty spread out fights with her surge. As a Surge+, it can hurt armor as well. The only reason I prefer Ravos’ unique surge to hers for Uthuk is that he is their only armor busting unit worth a ****. If Uthuk had another wound dealer I would prefer Kari’s.

 

35 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

He isn't nearly as scary true, but unless hunger gets nerfed or banned its a thing to deal with.  That's why I think hunger should go off after the wound.

Which I have supported for a while now. It can even be fixed with a rules errata and not card errata. Just force end of turn movement abilities to occur after all other end of turn abilities with the same timing. 

 

36 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

I've playtested a fair few games to get ready to demo the game off and not have Uthuk destroy everything.  Part of the issue is the 107 points out of the box no doubt, but out of the box Ravos is still really strong in that environment.  The only way I've been able to find a balance (being defined as either a 1-3 tray win either way) is to pull off 2 trays of berserkers, match them against daqan, and switch the lineup so Ravos is across from spearmen and not the Golem.

Seriously, just don’t run Ravos, Maegan, Faolon, Kari, or LordV in demo games. Don’t try to balance them as they are too good at that low points. They balance out much better at 200

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5 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Your solution to Threshers being a little too points efficient is to eliminate them as a viable unit?

First, you want to reduce Scuttling down to an upgrade that lets you get an exhaust to use a gimped Shift one sideways or to apply a stun. Go take a look at the top Uthuk players. We generally only use it once to twice a game anyway. This isn’t a nerf that makes a difference.

Devouring Maws 5 points? Why? What broken list has arrived with this card? What significant evidence is there that this is a problem in any way? It’s a nice thematic card that isn’t OP in any real way. 

Remove AOE Panic. Sure, we then make Threshers the only siege unit that isn’t applying an effect. We also make their panic reroll basically nonexistent as it’s a ***** to reliably put panics in enemy units. You would simultaneously make them stop acting like a siege unit and give them worse offense than Rune Golems. 

Then increase points? This isn’t calculated, pragmatic game design / balance suggestions. It feels like vindictiveness. 

 

Rune Golems and Carrion Lances both put out banes in lieu of attacking.  I'd be happy if the panic effect was a skill.  Bubble mass panic is really good for a free effect.  

I like the 2/4 idea; but do you think if they were 2/4 and nothing else changes, would they fall in line with the rest of the list, or still make up more than half the points of Uthuk units in most lists?

I don't think you need all of his suggestions, but I don't think 2/4 is enough.  To me, 2/4 and skill to bubble panic seems right on.  Makes you work a little for those re-rolls.

 

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Every hero has a situation in which they absolutely thrive and look overpowered. And one in which they look like a total dud.

ive also take to looking at 25 damage as a benchmark for a hero.  Generally every hero has some combination of abilities and upgrades that take them into the 20-30 range.  Getting beyond that depends upon how quickly you’ve torn through something and sometimes just isn’t possible.

That damage can be adjusted based on whether the hero is outfitted more to support the army or be a direct damage dealer themselves.

in some heroes, thst number is directly tied to the dice.  Faolan, for example just gets a big dice pool and I’ve has him swing for 12 damage once.  In Ravos case, much of that damage comes off his special abilities, which can be double edged in some situations.

im not sure we can extrapolate from learning scenarios, which are notoriously difficult to balance.  If your meta has a lot of Ravos, then I can tell you one of the worst situations he wants to find himself in is facing the from of 3x2 close quarters archers.  Infantry thst can tie him up and make him irrelevant long enough.  You. Ask ally have to find a way to limit his auto eat and his surge auto-wound.

 

abs pretty much every hero is susceptible to multiple attacks.  I’ve personally found the disruption from the panic token worse than whatever else he brings. And 2-7 makes him surprisingly easy to wound and kill if he finds himself misplaced.

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17 minutes ago, TheWiseGuy said:

Preach! Also reanimates upgrade slots are not great. Give us armor. Take away the -1 charge modifier

-1 charge is needed on a unit that goes 4 wide.  The banking charge is already a huge reach; if you could dial up a 3 strait charge and use the music slot to bend it, you could reach crazy far.  Far enough that uthuk would cry about it not being balanced.

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