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CaptainJaguarShark

Resistance Chewie and FO Quickdraw

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

2 front arc, 2 Rz-2 style turret arc, 3 hull, 3 shield, 2 agility, gunner slot (though a very limited one, Hot shot also fits as an option in addition to the SF gunner), missiles (which are hard locked to the turret arc), possibly mod though not 100%, Tech very likely. Can make sure it has max coverage front or rear after every action (the linked rotate, can't take VTurG because it only exists as linked but is still potent). Missing the dial for a more concise guestimate honestly, but I'm not seeing these being less than 38 (42 tops) bare for the spoiled I2. I think this is allot closer to the Kihraxz and X-Wing than the TIE Aggressor or Y-Wing in role despite the flippy guns. Especially if they don't change its dial from 1.0.

My TIE Aggressor compare was kinda bad, since that ship is wicked overpriced...

However, the 1-green, 8-HP statline and 2-green, 6-HP statline have been typically priced pretty similarly.  The SF having a dial similar to 1e is a safe guess (I feel like we might have seen it in some preview).  The rear gun is almost surely worth fewer points than a Dorsal Turret, in that without a Special Forces gunner, there's no non-missile benefit to it being forward, and the most powerful arcs for turrets are clearly the side arcs (which this lacks).  One of these being more expensive at the generic level than a Y-Wing + Dorsal is absurd.

The ship in the game with the closest stat line?  A TIE Bomber, with a different shield ratio.  Even adding a full Dorsal to a TIE Bomber and upgrading the hull to shields (about 1 point per hull switched) doesn't cost more than 35 points.

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the stats on the SF is looking pretty good so far! Its pretty beefy and it looks like it might fall into a heavy assault type fighter with ordnance, which shores up the FOs selection of either light fighters or heavy elite fighters and making a good medium level fighter (not counting the napkin holder shuttle). I have 2 so far and Im curious to see if I will want to get more in the future if they turnout being some fun trick fighters with the ability to launch missiles all over the board. 

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26 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The ship in the game with the closest stat line

K-Fighter. Has one more red on the front and no rear arc. The arc flexibility of the missiles, that the SF Gunner is faction locked, the TIE/SF being able to easily protect two directions of attack, that 50% of its 6 hp cannot result in a crit, and the full action bar is why I don't see it being less than 38 pts and possibly worth 42 bare unless the Kihraxz is reduced in points by a fair bit.

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46 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

K-Fighter. Has one more red on the front and no rear arc. The arc flexibility of the missiles, that the SF Gunner is faction locked, the TIE/SF being able to easily protect two directions of attack, that 50% of its 6 hp cannot result in a crit, and the full action bar is why I don't see it being less than 38 pts and possibly worth 42 bare unless the Kihraxz is reduced in points by a fair bit.

One more red die is HUGE.  Seriously.

That's why there's a 10 point difference in price between a Y-Wing and a B-Wing!

An 11 point difference between a TIE Fighter and TIE Interceptor!

A 10 point difference between a M3-A with a hull upgrade and a Starviper!

A rear arc is going to claw back some of that, but c'mon.  Dorsal is 4 points, and that leaves like a 6 point gap.

Bah.

More expensive for a naked TIE/sf than a Kihraxz?  Must be some nice glitterstim you're on there.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Ok.  Let's work backwards from the cost of an ARC-170.  That's got front/rear arcs.  Garven Dreis is 51 points in an arc.  He's 47 in an X-Wing, 6 more than the Init 2 generic.  So a hypothetical Init 2 generic ARC would work out to about 45.  Take off 10 points for the 3rd red die, and you'd be at about 35 points for an Init 2 ship with a 2 front/2 rear/1/6/3 statline.  I'd guess */1/6/3 is a little tougher of a defensive statline than a */2/3/3, but it'd be pretty close.

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1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

That's why there's a 10 point difference in price between a Y-Wing and a B-Wing!

An 11 point difference between a TIE Fighter and TIE Interceptor!

A 10 point difference between a M3-A with a hull upgrade and a Starviper!

B-Wing dial nukes Y-Wings for knife fighting by a long shot and the B-Wing is being taxed for Torps + Double Cannons (wrongly in my opinion).

Interceptor's S-Loops, Boost action, and ingrained link boost or barrel roll off of any action is a big part of the 11 pts between it and the TIE/LN.

Star Viper's barrel Rolls, Linked Focus, Sensor Slot and more aggressive in close fighting focused dial are part of that 10pt difference.

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

More expensive for a naked TIE/sf than a Kihraxz?  Must be some nice glitterstim you're on there.

When you take into account the action bar, likely dial, being able to sling Front Arc missiles forwards or backwards, that it has half of its health unable to be critted (compared to 1/6th of the Kihraxz's), that it does have a double arc (2 red or not), that the Faction locked gunner will unlikely be all that expensive, what slots are likely and look at how allot of the slots have been pro-rated points wise just for the potential of something in them then yes, the 38-42 range for a bare TIE/sf makes sense.

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4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Ok.  Let's work backwards from the cost of an ARC-170.  That's got front/rear arcs.  Garven Dreis is 51 points in an arc.  He's 47 in an X-Wing, 6 more than the Init 2 generic.  So a hypothetical Init 2 generic ARC would work out to about 45.  Take off 10 points for the 3rd red die, and you'd be at about 35 points for an Init 2 ship with a 2 front/2 rear/1/6/3 statline.  I'd guess */1/6/3 is a little tougher of a defensive statline than a */2/3/3, but it'd be pretty close.

You are focused on red die when the points cost is reflective of the entire package and how its potential is perceived.

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25 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You are focused on red die when the points cost is reflective of the entire package and how its potential is perceived.

Honestly I see this more akin to a TIE Bomber. At least currently until if/When the FO get a true bomber. 

Bombers have thier rockets and such to fire forward to supplement thier base attack. A Gunner including a semi-Specialist in the bombardiers. They can drop bombs or Mines to protect thier rear flanks. 

TIE SF, has a mobile Turret that emulates most effects of bombs mines or missles without the benefit of torpedos. Being shot at by the two dice rear about as annoying as hitting a bomblet. Except you can avoid this damage. Having a 3 Dice missles again can be avoided, but not any worse than a proximity mine. Given the number of dials and knowing it has a Specialist gunner I see it pricing at TIE Bomber levels at worst the Aggressor.

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I wouldn’t expect more than four in a list with Special Forces Gunner equipped.  Probably five without Special Forces Gunner.  You can probably estimate the price of the ship based on the price of the gunner.

4x Higher Initiative Generics with Juke and FCS would mean the combined cost with SF Gunner would be 43 points.  That list is probably unrealistic.

4x Lower Initiative Generics with just FCS and SF Gunner, would put a combined cost at 47 points top.  This seems a likely ball park, it will probably be a couple points cheaper.

I would expect the lowest generic to be about 44-46 points with a SF Gunner Equipped.

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10 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

I wouldn’t expect more than four in a list with Special Forces Gunner equipped.  Probably five without Special Forces Gunner.  You can probably estimate the price of the ship based on the price of the gunner.

4x Higher Initiative Generics with Juke and FCS would mean the combined cost with SF Gunner would be 43 points.  That list is probably unrealistic.

4x Lower Initiative Generics with just FCS and SF Gunner, would put a combined cost at 47 points top.  This seems a likely ball park, it will probably be a couple points cheaper.

I would expect the lowest generic to be about 44-46 points with a SF Gunner Equipped.

That is if they get a sensor slot. If they don't and have a tech slot FCS is off the table.

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I wouldn't be surprised if they get both the tech and sensor slots they did in 1.0.  The SFis shaping up to be a very customizable chassis.  Which makes sense in a small faction.

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5 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

Do Tech slots preclude System slots now?  I haven’t really kept up on the Resistance/FO news.

Not sure, to little info has been release other than a **** ton of empty pomp...

 

4 minutes ago, reqent said:

I wouldn't be surprised if they get both the tech and sensor slots they did in 1.0.  The SFis shaping up to be a very customizable chassis.  Which makes sense in a small faction.

Quite possible, though the First Order is looking more varied than the Resistance right now...

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2 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

Do Tech slots preclude System slots now?  I haven’t really kept up on the Resistance/FO news.

We don't know yet the only ship with tech is the gun runner which doesn't have system slot

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35 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Not sure, to little info has been release other than a **** ton of empty pomp...

 

Quite possible, though the First Order is looking more varied than the Resistance right now...

Yeah I am as worried about the resistance as I'm excited for the first order.  I feel like the first order has a better mix of ships/roles. 

They need to talk about the bomber and the a-wing more.  I'm worried that it is just gonna be Rey and Poe. Which is probably an over reaction but I'm used to 1.0 where the meta had settled before stuff was even released 

Edited by reqent

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7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

B-Wing dial nukes Y-Wings for knife fighting by a long shot and the B-Wing is being taxed for Torps + Double Cannons (wrongly in my opinion).

Interceptor's S-Loops, Boost action, and ingrained link boost or barrel roll off of any action is a big part of the 11 pts between it and the TIE/LN.

Star Viper's barrel Rolls, Linked Focus, Sensor Slot and more aggressive in close fighting focused dial are part of that 10pt difference.

When you take into account the action bar, likely dial, being able to sling Front Arc missiles forwards or backwards, that it has half of its health unable to be critted (compared to 1/6th of the Kihraxz's), that it does have a double arc (2 red or not), that the Faction locked gunner will unlikely be all that expensive, what slots are likely and look at how allot of the slots have been pro-rated points wise just for the potential of something in them then yes, the 38-42 range for a bare TIE/sf makes sense.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone describe the B-Wing's dial as a plus-factor. ?

You know what sits pretty much in the middle of the cost between M3-A Interceptors and Starvipers?  The TIE Advanced x1 which has a ship ability which is a sometimes 3rd attack die.

Compare the TIE Punisher to the Scurrg.  Punisher has a lot more capacity than the 3-red Scurrg.  Linked actions, white reload, white boost.  Scurrg has an extra shield, which is worth about 4 points.  Scurrg is only 6 points more than a Punisher with a Shield Upgrade.  But wait.  Punisher has access to the really powerful bombs + Trajectory Simulator option.  Scurrg can get that too, and it costs them 4 points.  So a Scurrg with Havoc is, get this... 10 points more than a Punisher with a Shield Upgrade, and the Punisher has a far better action bar.

Missile tricks will put this up over 40?  The Alpha Class Starwing is 35 and gets lots of movement and missile and cannon tricks, plus an extra hit point over the TIE/SF.

You keep going on about how much more the crit resistance of the TIE/sf is worth.  It's worth 3 points over a TIE Bomber.  Converting 1 hull to 1 shield pretty consistently in this game brings with it a 1 point shift in ships with pretty similar capabilities.

7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

You are focused on red die when the points cost is reflective of the entire package and how its potential is perceived.

No, I'm judging the whole.  The total package doesn't rate anything close to 42 points.

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I presented a range where I think the ship cost falls in, 38-42 points, and you latched onto the high end of it like it was a personal insult completely missing a key word in my original posting of that range.

9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I don't see it being less than 38 pts and possibly worth 42 bare

Why am I saying possibly 42 pts, because depending on the costing of the SF gunner the TIE/sf could very likely end up with that 3 die forward arc attack you're emphasizing for minimal investment on top of everything else on the ship. It is a faction locked upgrade, quite possibly chassis locked, which effectively combines Veteran Tail Gunner with the old 1.0 Punishing One title depending on which way the turret is pointed. Now, if you will, factor that into your estimates as I have with mine. Even with that being included in my estimate range I lean more towards the lower end than the 42, with the 42 being the absolute hard max I see the ship being worth if even that.

And please don't try comparing the Scurrg to the Punisher, the Punisher is leagues ahead of the Scurrg in capability with only the named pilot skills barely redeeming the Scurrg's chassis, and even then for casual play only...

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3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I presented a range where I think the ship cost falls in, 38-42 points, and you latched onto the high end of it like it was a personal insult completely missing a key word in my original posting of that range.

Why am I saying possibly 42 pts, because depending on the costing of the SF gunner the TIE/sf could very likely end up with that 3 die forward arc attack you're emphasizing for minimal investment on top of everything else on the ship. It is a faction locked upgrade, quite possibly chassis locked, which effectively combines Veteran Tail Gunner with the old 1.0 Punishing One title depending on which way the turret is pointed. Now, if you will, factor that into your estimates as I have with mine. Even with that being included in my estimate range I lean more towards the lower end than the 42, with the 42 being the absolute hard max I see the ship being worth if even that.

And please don't try comparing the Scurrg to the Punisher, the Punisher is leagues ahead of the Scurrg in capability with only the named pilot skills barely redeeming the Scurrg's chassis, and even then for casual play only...

I'm sure it is but, how do we know its faction locked? I'd guessed it might be chassis locked, but maybe not.

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3 minutes ago, Goseki1 said:

I'm sure it is but, how do we know its faction locked? I'd guessed it might be chassis locked, but maybe not.

It's called Special Forces Gunner, which pretty much implies it's meant for the TIE/sf.

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6 minutes ago, Okapi said:

It's called Special Forces Gunner, which pretty much implies it's meant for the TIE/sf.

Can't disagree with that, was just wondering if there was a spread I'd missed confirming it :)

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8 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

@theBitterFig If you're wondering what I'm talking about with the SF gunner upgrade, the first card spread, lower right hand side..

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/10/8/a-new-order/

I'm well aware of the gunner.

I discussed it from the begin, in my very first posts.  Without a gunner, 34-36 seem right.  With a gunner, 42-46.  Some of that is optimism.  Generic SFs were old favorites, and I like how they've been handled mechanically.

But you've been saying a "bare" SF.  No gunner.  If you're making the case that the gunner is going to cost like 2 points or something, with the real benefits and cost of the gunner baked into the raw chassis, that's a massive unstated assumption.  I've been upfront that I think the gunner will be priced "fairly," somewhere around 8-10 points, similar-ish to something like Veteran Turret Gunner.  Without a gunner effect, this thing is, as I said, worth something like a Y-Wing or TIE Bomber with a turret grafted on.

 

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