Jump to content
Okapi

The Jakku Gunrunner appreciation thread

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Okapi said:

You know they can do all the 2s and the middle 3s, so as an ace player you should be able to get out of the way before they get the opportunity. They're not THAT hard to avoid.

Just to fix this for you - the actual area which they can cover is way much larger than “all the 2s and the middle 3s”.

The typical Drea swarm list plays at least 2 Jakkus and L337.

So what you can do for example is move one of Jakkus and tractor the other one forward. Then then 2nd Jakku moves, doing for example 3 bank, and then it can also do a barrel roll. Finally L337 activates, moves and coordinates the second Jakku to actually do the tractor beaming.

So it’s not as simple as watching for speed 2 and 3 moves.

Edited by baranidlo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Just to fix this for you - the actual area which they can cover is way much larger than “all the 2s and the middle 3s”.

The typical Drea swarm list plays at least 2 Jakkus and L337.

So what you can do for example is move one of Jakkus and tractor the other one forward. Then then 2nd Jakku moves, doing for example 3 bank, and then it can also do a barrel roll. Finally L337 activates, moves and coordinates the second Jakku to actually do the tractor beaming.

So it’s not as simple as watching for speed 2 and 3 moves.

Indeed, with more than one tugboat this type of shenanigans can be made. 

Question for me is though, how long will the tractored tugboat and L337 live after that? They will be exposed without tokens (and even 1 less green). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm baffled why anyone thinks the Jakku Gunrunner is so problematic that it needs a point increase.

There are several ways to counter them. You could start by bringing the smallest obstacles. You could fly a lot of ordinance and just delete a couple before they get close. You could engage at range three in the open where they can't throw you around anywhere meaningfully the following turn. You can come at them from multiple angles so they have to choose one of your ships to focus on and just bail out with that one while the other ships shoot them from out of arc. You can come at them from multiple angles and if they break up their blob of quadjumpers, you can bail with all your ships and keep flying around in circles until they're sufficiently isolated from the others and just pick them off.

The ship is fine. Just like before, people need to learn to fly better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, AceWing said:

I'm baffled why anyone thinks the Jakku Gunrunner is so problematic that it needs a point increase.

I wouldn’t call them problematic, just underpriced.  To solve your bafflement, I think it’s probably because it is essentially a Z95 with more health, a better action bar, better slots, and a built in ship ability that automatically gives a tractor token.  All this for a paltry 4 point difference.

Edited by Phelan Boots

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, nexttwelveexits said:

I just hope the devs aren't as reactionary as the community, and they take a common sense approach by trying to rebalance things slowly unless they are either totally unbeatable or totally nonviable, especially since we can expect relatively frequent influxes of new options. The only thing I see out there that needs an adjustment of more than 1-2 points is scum Han gunner, and even with him I'd rather err on the conservative side than make him totally unplayable until the next balance point.

Nah, changing things up, even drastically changes the potentially meta game and stops stagnation in list building. 

You might be enjoying the meta right now and feel it is balanced (or at least fun). I know I am enjoying it. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t change it. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Phelan Boots said:

I wouldn’t call them problematic, just underpriced.  To solve your bafflement, I think it’s probably because it is essentially a Z95 with more health, a better action bar, better slots, and a built ship ability that automatically  gives a tractor token.  All this for a paltry 4 point difference.

If it's not problematic, who cares? All the playable stuff is undercosted. That's why they're playable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

12 lists with Quad Jumpers (9 with Gun Runners specifically) started on Sat, 2 (both with Gun Runners) made cut for Sun, 1 really well played by a very good player took the Final...

I know, and with that info, I am saying what I said with that info in mind. I don't think a point or two would make them unplayable, you just have to think about putting them in your list, especially once the mining TIE is released. Those things will be the natural predator of gunrunners.

 

Edit: OR we go the other way, stuff that needs a decrease gets it and all the things that "need" a increase stay the same.

 

Edited by Hujoe Bigs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I know, and with that info, I am saying what I said with that info in mind. I don't think a point or two would make them unplayable, you just have to think about putting them in your list, especially once the mining TIE is released. Those things will be the natural predator of gunrunners.

Two tops. More than that and it becomes iffy if the Gun Runner is worth taking, especially with the role expansion Primed Thrusters might bring. As for the MGTIE.. I am getting impatient for more info, being able to take advantage of their ability to ignore asteroids is something I'm looking forwards to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, baranidlo said:

Just to mention, in 1.0 Jakkus costed 15 points + 2 points for Spacetug Tractor Array.

So this is 34 points in 2.0.

But for some reason, they actually only cost 28 points. And their built-in Spacetug Tractor is actually much better than it was in 1.0 (giving 2 tokens to toss medium bases around). AND they also got an improved dial, because, why not?

And if you think it is "easy" to dodge their tractors, then you have not played against good Quadjumper list in hands of good player.

Also for the players who say it's easy to nuke them off before combat - if you get off three focused attacks with 3 dice at range two, against their 2 defense dice, the expected damage is 1.074 + 1.531 + 1.531 = 4.136.

It gets much worse at range 3 indeed.

So on average you will NOT destroy it, and instead you will get hosed on the next turn by the totally balanced Spacetug Tractor Array..

And as others have already mentioned, the big base ships which could pose as a counter to them, are horribly overcosted and unplayable.

January could not come soon enough..

And with them being 34 points in 1.0 terms they were so over used an OP in 1.0 they lowered the cost to piss everyone off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Start with a 10 point hike and go from there.  These things are priced like TIE fighters but bring so much more to the table it is ridiculous.

Repeating your hyperbole everywhere a Gunrunner is mentioned does not make it more true.

Basic TIE Fighter:

Ini1, 2/3/3 Focus, Evade, BR

dial 16moves, 2red, identical greens, 2 different speed turnaround options (3/4K) , 0back, can go 4 and 5

23pts

 

Gunrunner:

Ini1 2/2/5 Focus, Red(!) Evade, BR

dial 18moves, 5 red, identical greens, 1 speed turnaround option (2Segnor), 2str back, 1bank back. Fastest is 3.

Range 1(!) ability, does work only partly against medium and large bases. Costs the action, neither can be done when blocked or stressed without adding additional points.

28pts

They are quite comparable. You seem to forgot that the naked Gunrunners are very stress and crit susceptible, and are SSSLOOOOOW.

 

You like arguing TIE fighters, if you argue for a 10pts hike, than things like Iden needs 20pts, because she basically is another Ini4 TIE fighter.

While discussing ridiculous things, we can also mention Redline's current cost, Juke on Defenders and Phantoms, or Collision Detector on Phantoms.

 

 

15 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Tractor Array is the worst mechanic they did since original TIE Phantoms, and it's also the mechanical successor. And we nerfed Phantoms ability in first, and the chassis in second. That will seem odd to read to some, so please allow to explain. 

(...) Giving a board change to a ship after the dial is set without a locked position mechanic saying where that goes, but before it reveals that dial is a break of the perfect information system required for a healthy double blind gameplay design.

The same rationale ("break of the perfect information system required for a healthy double blind gameplay design") applies for

Informant

Sense

Snoke

 

Lots of complaining about the Quad being NPE, but those dial reveals are destroying the fundamental mechanism of the game as well.

Then we have Tragedy simulator, that one is also totally stupid NPE.

However the worst NPE offender is someone else:

FFG so far still has only 1 gamemode: 400/6 deathmatch.

So your goal is to kill the opponent's ships.

There is one upgrade which punishes you hard for doing this, and makes significantly harder to kill the rest: Sloane. That card is just ridiculous.

Especially when played by a top tier player.

Edited by Managarmr
fixed formatting error

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

12 lists with Quad Jumpers (9 with Gun Runners specifically) started on Sat, 2 (both with Gun Runners) made cut for Sun, 1 really well played by a very good player took the Final...

Considering about 10% of the lists made the cut, a 22% success rate for the Gunrunner is really good!  It's tied with Boba and only exceeded by Soontir. 

The data you quoted shows the Gunrunner is one of the most successful pilots at the Mynock open.  Yet you quote it as if it supports your point.

@Hugeman That makes a lot of sense.  Make the Gunrunner limited like the silly coordinate shuttles.  If Gunrunners are a counter to Aces, we don't really need them in a generics only format anyway.  And folks can still technically fly four at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, SOTL said:

My current scum lists costs 200pts but I expect in January it'll be closer to 225pts.  That's how much key Scum ships is undercosted by - there's a fair chance I'm getting the Quadjumper for 'free' vs what other factions are getting for their points.

A lot of Scum 3-4 ship builds break (breach 200pts) if Han/Marauder/Boba go up by 8 points total, divided however. They're really points sensitive at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why all the hate on the Gunrunners? Once you fly against them for a bit, you easily learn how to deal with them. Maybe your local group hasn't seen them often? My area has and most players are able to deal with them easily. I do agree the Jakku needs a 1 point increase. Maybe switch the cost of Sarco and Unkar as well.

TL:DR Learn to fly, Quads aren't the real problem...

Edited by Kilrex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny to hear how so many assume quad players are so easily beat. Yes, that is true for the most part. But the good players with them are no retards. They know how to force a gun out of the fight with the threat, they can range control, and they do the math about pt values...such as the absurdity of how you can sacrifice two into the fray and still get a positive result. Yeah, in a vacuum quads are easy, but they don't let that vacuum happen thanks to the heavy hitters in their list...some of them way too fast to attempt to run from and not shoot something. And your arc dodge lanes are threatened by a quad because next turn it will execute one of 9 whites to get you.

I don't buy the rock paper scissors argument: that was 1e's meta. 2 players of relatively equal skill should have at most a 35-65 disparity for victory, not 20-80.

Edited by player3010587

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Han alone could conceivably go up by 8.

Yep. If Boba/Marauder/Han Gunner goes up by 8 (Han up 8; Han up 2, Boba up 6; whatever), then:

  • Boba/Palob/4-LOM, with just Moldy and AS, would be 202.
  • Boba/Palob/2x Tugboat, with just Moldy, would be 201.
  • Boba/2x Fearless Skulls, would be 201.

Etc etc. And that's just at 8 points. If, say, Han goes up by 4, Marauder goes up by 2, and Boba goes up 8, for 14 total...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

As someone that just won a major event with the buggers... They are awesome. They need a slight bump though, 1-4 points is rather fair. Any more and you just priced them out of existence. The reason they are good is because of people not knowing how to fly against them. 

Good to hear it from someone that actually plays these competitively.

I have played them too, but not on tournaments. I was under the impression that you have to really be on top of your play to make them work. Especially against triple aces.

Sure you can pull one of the aces over the asteroids and maybe even kill it. But they still have the big advantage to decide when and where to engage. They also can swoop in, kill one of your ships and disengage. The opponenr can’t just come in between the asteroids and battle it straight out, expecting to win against these Quads of course.

There are lists that can do that. I played the swarm against Jonus Bombers plus Whisper. They can joust your swarm head on and come out on top. They can also reliably kill one quad on the first salvo and damage or kill another Quad or Z, while taking minimal return fire.

I also played triple imperials, as well as Scum Aces against them with Soontir, Whisper, Redline as Empire, and with Fenn, Guri, Kavil for Scum.

As the Empire it was pretty straightforward to win.Tragedy simulator plus a torp stands good chances of killing a ship and damaging some more. Then they can have Redline. If you’re lucky he survives one more turn and can cause another tragedy. The two real aces can flank them wide. If you get behind a quadjumper you often have two turns of unmolested shooting. I apso lost Soontir due to a dumb mistake, but that was to 2 dice Fire  where i misjudged a boost and didn’t dodge out, and missed my shot and bullseye arc for a focus. Whisper was untouched all game long and i felt jt could have gone on forever without any way of the remaining ships even getting a shot.

With Fenn&Co it was tighter. I had to fly him around the edge of the board entirely to avoid getting tractored. Then i tried to exploit enemy maneuvers with Kavil, but lost him in the process while doing only 3 damage on a Quad in return. Guri fared better, he got ignored and had Outmaneuver, so he then shot down a Z and L-337 in quick succession. But then he landed in tractor arcs and got tossed over several roids. It was only my dice luck that prevented him from dying. I didn’t roll a single asteroid damage and he only took one damage from shooting. Luckily Fenn then was in position and deleted 2 of the Quads at R1 in 2 turns. From then on it was mopping up. But i would have lost if Guri didn’t luck out

I have no idea if these quads are really that overpowered. They feel very strong, and are a decent counter to aces. But i feel that against ordnance Alphastrikes they also get countered pretty hard. And you have to show a lot if skill in order to perform with this list. It’s by no means an autowin list nor quick or easy to play. Which is also why i never took it to a tournament so far. And thats also why doing well on tournaments with a Swarm still owes my respect. If you can’t perform in the 5th or so game a day because you tilt out, what good are the Quadjumpers?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, the best way to counter quads is asteroid placement. Set them up away from your edge and make them come to you.

Placing them close together in the middle = bad. Pick a corner of the mat and line them up close together in a right triangle to create nice big open areas. 

Trajectory Sim with Seismics are good at removing the ones on your approach even if they explosion doesn't hit anything.

I was playing a guy with Tobias that setup all of his rocks on one corner of the mat close to my setup area and moved a 4th one over there and setup on the opposite corner. Hit me at range 3, disengaged, and repeated until he killed 2 quads. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...