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The Jakku Gunrunner appreciation thread

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I actually would prefer the ship to get only minimumal touched. 1-2 points. I would rather the stuff not getting use get point decreases. There are going to be a lot of natural predators to gunrunners soon. I also think the fact that people think the game requires you to have to move after an opponent to win, is the exact opposite if what this game should be. It should be a bonus, but just that.

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57 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

When I'm looking at 4-Lom/Palob/Kavil/Quad and compare it to let's say Miranda/Nym, I'm really not sure which one is less obnoxious to play against..

You can't be serious!!!

Miranda/Nym was the epitome of NPE - Yes it could be beaten but only if you tailored a list for it - even then it was a hard unenjoyable road.

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7 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I actually would prefer the ship to get only minimumal touched. 1-2 points. I would rather the stuff not getting use get point decreases. There are going to be a lot of natural predators to gunrunners soon. I also think the fact that people think the game requires you to have to move after an opponent to win, is the exact opposite if what this game should be. It should be a bonus, but just that.

There's absolutely no way it only gets a 1-2 point increase, it has a built in ability, on a 28 point ship which in it's current form is warping OP play to a rate which it is being overused because of it's undercosted, extermely powerful ability. The "nerf" so to speak hammer is coming.... Winter is Coming. 

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12 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

I actually would prefer the ship to get only minimumal touched. 1-2 points. I would rather the stuff not getting use get point decreases. There are going to be a lot of natural predators to gunrunners soon. I also think the fact that people think the game requires you to have to move after an opponent to win, is the exact opposite if what this game should be. It should be a bonus, but just that.

I agree that anything more than 1-2, maaaaaybe 3, points would be an overreaction. Given that other balances should happen--Palob, 4-lom, and Boba all getting similar cost increases, plus an unused ship like the M3-A getting a cost decrease, as well as cost rebalancing in other factions and the introduction of four new factions to the fold...

The ONLY way I'd be good with the Jakku Gunrunner going up more than 2 points is if one (or more) of the other pilots actually wound up being cheaper. The Quadjumper likes moving first, because spacetug is less useful/predictable when you're not, so it might be the one chassis in the game that is actually willing to pay for a lower initiative. Flipping the script and having the unique I2/4 pilots be the cheapest while the I1 generic is  the most expensive? That's some dank scum jank right there.

Edited by nexttwelveexits

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3 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

There's absolutely no way it only gets a 1-2 point increase, it has a built in ability, on a 28 point ship which in it's current form is warping OP play to a rate which it is being overused because of it's undercosted, extermely powerful ability. The "nerf" so to speak hammer is coming.... Winter is Coming. 

A screaming Lannister breathing the motto of the Starks, how humorous. It'll be interesting to see your reaction when/if they add in Dooku's yacht... He may have been the best known user, but like the Bulballub he wasn't the only one. :) 2 pts tops with a reasonable reduction in the cost of the predators that can handle a Gunrunner would work fine.

Edited by Hiemfire

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6 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

So, in response to some comments, you actually do want to cost something like the Gunrunner to where it's unplayable, or at least unplayable in a general sense. It's a counter to other elements of the game, breaks core rules and removes a lot of player agency.

This is just my opinion - the reason I enjoy X-Wing is that a lot of the player agency is removed.  It reminds me of an old game I played once call Piquet - don't know what happened to that game.  Some of the swings in momentum were crazy and very fun to play.

In other words it provides a better semblance of fog of war than most of the "your turn - my turn" games.  This style of game forces a more risk/reward style of game play where I can do everything right (never - lol) and still end up with a poor outcome (due to my opponents unforeseen actions or bad dice etc.).  I know that you will say that once I am in range of the gunrunner's ability then there is nothing I can do and that is not an unknown - but that is the point - how did I get there to start with?  Did I take a risk?  Was I unlucky?  Did something unexpected occur?

I guess it is just a matter of game philosophy and what we want from the game.  I would rather be like Napoleon - "Where the F#@$ did they get those horses" than Bobby Fisher - "I know exactly what I am up against and what will happen".

And, this is a whole other discussion but, I would love to have seen a better initiative system for equal initiative ships (something more random and changing throughout the game).

All that being said - Gunrunners, Palob and Fett are due a modest increase.  Also due an increase are Redline, Tie Bombers and Whisper/Echo.  I also think we will see Juke, Protorps and Advanced Sensors get a bump up.  Most large bases need a small decrease though as do things like the E-Wing, Tie Aggressor and IG88's.

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15 hours ago, SOTL said:

This is not a stupid question, it's a fantastic question.  Made me stop and think again about how to position my answer.


Wretched Hive vs Redline/Whisper
I would say that this type of Scum list should cost 220-225 points, but then I'd also expect to see the Imperial Punisher lists go up to a similar ballpark cost in January.  I think lists like these that are able to pack in 3 or 4 significantly undercosted cards are a clear S-Tier above everything else at the moment.
 
And yet as I said, the Imperials got totalled routinely by the Scum.  So if I think both have 220pts worth of value in them they're on a par in terms of cost, and yet is beating the other, what's happening?  So first of all, maybe that means the Scum needs to go up by even more and I've been conservative in saying it's only to 220.  Second of all I think there's a bad matchup bit in here around how much the Scum are being hit by the bombs seeing as they've got both tough ships AND great range control (Jakku, Palob and 4-LOM can stop/reverse if they sense the bombs are coming), and in Tractor/Stress/Palob there's a lot of disruption & control built in alongside awesome action economy which Whisper doesn't like.
 
Wretched Hive vs History
The one big takeaway for me from my deep run into the tournament with the Scum list is that it felt incredibly forgiving... like a Paratanni level of being able to shrug your shoulders when bad things happen and just win anyway.  I said in my interview after round 5 on stream that the list had pulled me to 3-0 and that's completely true: I was awful with it and it just refused to lose.  Round 4 onwards I basically shouldn't have lost because I worked out how to play it, and the only reason it wasn't a mirror match final was because I threw my semi-final away with a major mistake.
 
We used to complain about how Attani Mindlink meant you were able to get actions even if you got bumped or stressed or whatever - ss long as one ship got free everyone was ok.  In this list everyone is self-serving that sort of thing.  Palob is stacking his tokens up in advance and still steal tokens, Kavil can turn any direction to clear stress and still get focus and an extra dice on his attack, 4-LOM with Advanced Sensors can't be stopped from taking 2 actions and passing you a stress.  Yeah Kavil and Palob have rotate arcs not turrets, but so long as you're halfway planning ahead that's still getting you shots 90% of the time.
 
It's really, really dirty.  One list shouldn't be able to joust this hard, have this much action economy, this much toughness, this much control AND be resilient to opponent's plays.  Playing Kavil felt like playing Attani, playing 4-LOM felt like playing Commonwealth Defenders... overall it just felt like I had too many advantages.

best post iv read in these forums in months. Gr8 question and superb breakdown of detail in the answer. Thanks SOTL.

I played Parattani just prior to it getting nerfed. The action economy was off the charts.

Edited by Da_Brown_Bomber

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9 hours ago, Honest globalist said:

We.... You didn t do anything. 

If they would be re- writing the skills and the card we are right back where we stopped with the end off 1.0. Errata upon errata.... Upon errata. 

I d say leave things as they are. It isn t overpowered. It is a handy tool. AS you may have seen in events, a whole lot off other fleets won.

 

'We' as in the community provided enough push to move FFG to make a change in our behalf. You may find in life many instances where something occurs that you may at first not believe you and others had some central part in, but later realized you had a major role. 

Yes WE made enough racket to change cloak

Yes WE provided enough play data to show Biggs needed slapped

Yes WE broke the game so bad with JM5k that they listened... Twice.

Yes other fleets won... And yet there's still a thread every week bemoaning the **** things. If they weren't over powered we wouldn't be sitting here typing at each other about the buggers and instead we would be discussing things like k-turn races, and ring around the asteroids, and rules of 11 and how the medium base changes them. 

But here we are, again, debating the same mechanics on the same ship. How odd.

I always compare this paradox back to the ending of the movie First Contact. It's not that the movie is full of static, it's that there's 8 hours of it.

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4 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

best post iv read in these forums in months. Gr8 question and superb breakdown of detail in the answer. Thanks SOTL.

I played Parattani just prior to it getting nerfed. The action economy was off the charts.

Cheers boss!

I also said this on my Facebook post about the event...

 

Overall did far far better than I expected considering that I was playing a squad I'd never played before round 1 on Saturday morning!

Except, I realised overnight that I *had* played it before... that combination of pilots was actually one of my 'Wretched Hive' casual lists in 1st Edition. The rules of Wretched Hive were there had to be four named Scum pilots and none of them could be 'good', so in 1.0 that meant it looked something like this...

Wretched Hive 1.0
* 4-LOM (27)
* Palob Godalhi - Attani Mindlnk, Dorsal Turret (24)
* Unkar Plutt - Spacetug Tractor Array, Primed Thrusters (20)
* Kavil - Attani Mindlink, Synced Turret (29)
**100pts**

And that's turned into:

Wretched Hive 2.0
* 4-LOM - Advanced Sensors, Mist Hunter (59)
* Palob Godalhi - Debris Gambit, Moldy Crow (52)
* Jakku Gunrunner (28)
* Kavil - Han Solo, Dorsal Turret, R4 Astromech, Proton Torpedoes (61)
**200pts**

So in the conversion to Second Edition the list gained:
1) 4-LOM buffed (action economy, extra hull, better dial)
2) Palob buffed (2 dice basic turret, Jam, boost etc)
3) Jakku Gunrunner buffed (can move Medium bases)
4) Kavil buffed (dice out of front arc, better dial)
5) FREE Moldy Crow token-stacking title & 3 dice main gun
6) FREE Han Solo action economy
7) FREE Advanced Sensors
? FREE Mist Hunter title
9) FREE Proton Torpedoes with Extra Munitions

That's a lot of buffs and free gear.  I know the Wretched Hive was starting from a fairly low power base in 1.0 but if this squad doesn't cost about 230pts in January then I think something is wrong.  

Until then, I for one welcome our new Scum overlords!

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So are you guys saying, increasing the gunrunner by 6 points, that all the named pilots have to be increased by 6 points as well?

I don't think I agree with that... I mean part of the problem of the Q4 in 1.0 was that you couldn't do anything with the named pilots without turning them into a 5 hp point bomb with minimal effect...

 

Also Gunrunner 34 points > Constable Zuvio 33 points is just wtf > Sarco > Unkar

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42 minutes ago, Gibbilo said:

So are you guys saying, increasing the gunrunner by 6 points, that all the named pilots have to be increased by 6 points as well?

Pretty much, yeah.  You might compress the range a bit because Quads are an oddity where low Initiative is actually an advantage a lot of the time.

Zuvio is 33 but if you carried him across from 1.0 he'd be 42 with the Tractor Array.  Even if you upped him to, say, 37/38 he's getting a saving.

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49 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Pretty much, yeah.  You might compress the range a bit because Quads are an oddity where low Initiative is actually an advantage a lot of the time.

Zuvio is 33 but if you carried him across from 1.0 he'd be 42 with the Tractor Array.  Even if you upped him to, say, 37/38 he's getting a saving.

Here's a good question: if both Jakku Gunrunner and Constable Zuvio cost 33 points, which would you take? What if the Gunrinner was 33 and Zuvio was 34?

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Or y'know, you could just redesign tractors while it's still early in the games second edition, and avoid problems like this for the rest of the games life. ??

Then price according to the new effect may not even need to change. Two paths, change the price of the effect or change the effect to match the price. Force, do both, be crazy. Advantage of SecEd is that the price is easily changed when necessary but they can still change the rules if they want to.

I mean over the course of two threads I have two versions of how the rules would be improved and function to deal with the buggers and I'm POSITIVE that there's a whole file cabinet worth of ideas just floating out there that could work.

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1 hour ago, nexttwelveexits said:

Here's a good question: if both Jakku Gunrunner and Constable Zuvio cost 33 points, which would you take? What if the Gunrinner was 33 and Zuvio was 34?

Exactly. Which is why even though SOTL is probably correct from a mathematics perspective about a 6 point increase, I'm not sure that's what should happen because it creates all these weird situations with other ships of the line.

TBH I don't really care if gunrunner goes up, I'm more interested in preserving the other named pilots, which at this moment i think aren't seeing much play for a variety of reasons beyond the gunrunner being simply the best choice.

 

It seems to me the less awkward fix would be a 3 point increase on the gunrunner / maybe the other ones, and also indirect fixes on other ships elsewhere. One random idea is taking homing missile, which is worthless by general consensus, and change too: "...choose to suffer 1 CRIT"  (instead of 1 hit). Now you have a ordinance better against shieldless ship types (which we probably need anyway) such as the tug.

(If one was worried about this change completely hard countering things such as tie interceptors you could toy with the idea of changing the baseline roll to 3 dice instead of 4 dice). There are other solutions and soft changes to other ships that could work too, in addition to a slight points increase.

 

Edited by Gibbilo

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Eh, I like the tractor beam mechanics, they're fine.  The Quad is pretty good for just being a 2/2/5/0 ship with a nutso dial for 28pts.

Hammer beams!? Wedges Baby Making pistol!? The bad touch gun!? You like it? Wow that's a surprise actually. I did not expect that ??

I never have seen someone play against them and had a good time by the look on their face. At best I see begrudgingly resigned. My own games aside, I mean in watching others I see the same NPE signs I used to see in old phantom games. I've seen enjoyment with the new phantoms which is a huge improvement for FFG. But I still haven't seen both players equally positively engaged with the tractor beams mechanics in either edition.

Alright then. 

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8 minutes ago, flooze said:

dozen charges to activate

From what I get from the tone of those for heavy nerfs, twelve charge req, charge level starts at 0 and it only charges when the tug is hit and takes a damage (so only when shot, not over rocks or debris) is all they would accept. They want it gone.

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16 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

From what I get from the tone of those for heavy nerfs, twelve charge req, charge level starts at 0 and it only charges when the tug is hit and takes a damage (so only when shot, not over rocks or debris) is all they would accept. They want it gone.

Well i hope that it won't be gone. The dozen was more of a provocation and I was afraid to get the first answer to that number ;)

I get that this is npe for some, and therefore increasing the cost will only change so much. So I wondered if it's more "fair play" if the effect only happens every other round. 

Edited by flooze

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6 minutes ago, flooze said:

Well i hope that I won't be gone. The dozen was more of a provocation and I was afraid to get the first answer to that number ;)

I get that this is npe for some, and therefore increasing the cost will only change so much. So I wondered if it's more "fair play" if the effect only happens every other round. 

The cheap Gun Runner is just as fair as an I5 or I6 with a 3 primary and potent secondaries vs I3s and I4s...

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11 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

'We' as in the community provided enough push to move FFG to make a change in our behalf. You may find in life many instances where something occurs that you may at first not believe you and others had some central part in, but later realized you had a major role. 

Yes WE made enough racket to change cloak

Yes WE provided enough play data to show Biggs needed slapped

Yes WE broke the game so bad with JM5k that they listened... Twice.

Yes other fleets won... And yet there's still a thread every week bemoaning the **** things. If they weren't over powered we wouldn't be sitting here typing at each other about the buggers and instead we would be discussing things like k-turn races, and ring around the asteroids, and rules of 11 and how the medium base changes them. 

But here we are, again, debating the same mechanics on the same ship. How odd.

I always compare this paradox back to the ending of the movie First Contact. It's not that the movie is full of static, it's that there's 8 hours of it.

no you didn't...

and have no fear, tournaments will make things shift.. if needed.

 

Edited by Honest globalist

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1 hour ago, flooze said:

Would it help if the tractor action had recharge and you needed two/three/dozen charges to activate? 

Hahahaha.

No. But funny story there's plenty of references to the power drain required to operate them. It's actually how Old Ben disabled them. So charges would have made some sense I suppose.

I'd rather the mechanic make some actual sense in the context of the Star Wars references to what they are and how they work. Even including the semi-newtonian physics that we take as given for a fictional universe. In every instance we see them used they follow certain rules that so far seem immutable, until FFG threw out the book.

1: The ship with the Tractor beam is larger and more powerful by far than the object it's tractoring. Ironically that makes almost sense in real physics too though I'm not sure it's intentional, but even a little common sense helps suspend disbelief so maybe. ISD tractored the Tantive IV, the DS1 was able to tractor the Millennium Falcon from a surprisingly extreme range, more ISDs tractored transports escaping ports in Rebels, ISD vs Luke's X-wing in Thrawn Trilogy. This is upheld by general consensus of information available on wookiepedia too which has a catalog of references on the subject. Conclusion here being that yes I think tractors should be in the game as they are a part of the universe, unfortunately the only reasonable place they would seem appropriate is on epic ships, MAYBE on some large ships while restricted to catching small ships. Which would have been a good way to solidify epic ships role in the game and give them some identity. 

2: The pilot is aware and can react. Han chose to shut down the engine rather than waste time against the DS1s overwhelming pull. The transports in Rebels had the gumption to pull against the beam to buy time. In other references it turned out that flying a second ship through the beam at a right angle disrupted its hold making their use pointless in large dogfights, not to mention they drew huge amounts of power away from the weapons anyway so I'm combat proceed impractical. By that reasoning a tug should have to take weapons disabled token to use it's array. 

3: They're slow, watch any scene where they're used, it's a fact of the universe. The beam takes a good amount of time to move it's captive any relevant amount of distance. And if that's the case it should require the tractor move in game to take place well after you apply the token. Like you get to move the ship at the end of the round if the ship that tractored it is still there. Tractors with that as the basis of their design would function like a Target Lock token that had a ship ID number on it that you can spend at the end of the round for an effect. They lock on in whatever step, and by the end of the round move you somewhere. IF the Tractor origin is still around. This alone would restore the double blind perfect info before the planning phase of each round. And give a counterplay option of destroy the Tractor source to avoid it's effect. 

There's plenty of ways they could make tractors functional, interactive, fun, and thematically appropriate all without sacrificing the theme to the game play. They just so far seem to want to choose not to on these forcing things. 

Edited by ForceSensitive

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