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Lace Jetstreamer

Gambling Loot Box Blind Box

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Preface

My original post was deleted because FFG knows the contents of the original thread to be factual.  They do not want to take proper responsibility for the products they are selling especially for minors and how they are responsible for introducing minors into gambling.

Loot Box / Blind Box

KeyForge uses blind box / loot box mechanics in order to sell the game.  Why is the main game mechanic wrapped so tightly around the loot box? The reason is obvious, motivating players to purchase more and more loot boxes.

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The message is clear: they want you to stay ignorant of the contents, so that if you wind up buying something you don’t want then you’ll essentially have to come back to buy more from them until you finally get it. - source 1

Source 1

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It’s also against the law to market our services to children or in public, where children might see these messages. - source 2

Source 2

You may agree that physical games use gambling loot boxes in order to sell product.  I do not think developers should be prevented from creating games that use this monetization strategy; however, the game should be regulated just like any other gambling activity.  That includes NOT ALLOWING the game to be marketed to non-adults.  The game should also have clear warnings that it uses GAMBLING as its primary source of monetization.

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Both buying loot boxes and buying card packs are gambling because they involve the exchange of money in the hope that you may get something of real-world value in return. - Source 2

Source 2

The above quote is from a gambling industry expert who rightfully identifies loot boxes and card packs as GAMBLING.

Health Effects

For those interested in why exposing gambling to children is harmful to their development, please read this article (has citations).  Exposing non-adults to gambling in their childhood has potential problems that go well into their adult hood.  Most of the people on this forum have been exposed to gambling through various means like trading cards during their childhood and those people can't even acknowledge that loot boxes and blind boxes are actually gambling.  They are gambling addicted and apart of being addicted is the inability to admit to one's gambling problems like purchasing loot boxes / blind boxes.

http://knowtheodds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYCPG_ebook_YouthGambling_052114.pdf

Customer First

Many have already argued that making the entire deck a loot box is somehow more customer friendly then selling booster packs.  I think this is a flawed statement.  The card gaming industry ALREADY has customer friendly deck building formats.  One of the game companies is White Wizard Games and they produce Star RealmsHero Realms, and Epic Card Game

I own Star Realms and have played hero realms.  I really enjoy this type of deck building game.  The important part is that there is ZERO randomness when purchasing card packs or the starter deck.  All the cards are 100% identified on each card pack.  Its different to the keyforge style of deck building but that is where Epic Card Game comes in.

The Fix

FFG could easily fix the problem while still providing a 'unique' experience.  All FFG needs to do is expose the QR code on the box so that players can SCAN the contents before making a purchase.  Or they could list all of the names of the cards and their quantity on the back of the box.  Or they could have a flip out that shows the contents.  By allowing the contents of the box to be known before purchase, the product would no longer fall under gambling laws and would be fine.  For the people who don't want to know the contents, they could easily just not look and buy the first one off the shelf.  

Of course, FFG and stores would have a problem and that is the question of what to do with all the unwanted underpowered stock.  The game itself has the concept of chains which is a built in mechanic to deal with over powered decks.  FFG knows there will be over powered combinations and people will inherently seek those out on their purchases.  So its not in FFG's best interest to be consumer friendly since the whole point of the product line is to sell as many as possible.  Anyways, there is always a solution for a company that is looking to be consumer friendly but FFG/Asmodee is looking to maximise their profits at the expense of the players.  

Summary

We should call out FFG now for their irresponsible business practices before Legislation catches up (which it will in the next few years).  Keyforge to me is ultimately a failed product BECAUSE its main mechanic is so tightly tied to the loot box.  I certainly won't be purchasing their product and will warn others of this dishonest and harmful business practice of selling loot boxes to non-adults.

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Your perspective OP is intriguing to think about. Unfortunately it is also flawed due to your supposition that it is the sole correct one. Cultures around the world do not have an universal agreement on what constitutes gambling for example. Ad Hominem attacks certainly are not going to help convince others to your opinion. Your fix would actually not solve the gambling problem you perceive  either incidentally.

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3 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

We should call out FFG now for their irresponsible business practices before Legislation catches up (which it will in the next few years).  Keyforge to me is ultimately a failed product BECAUSE its main mechanic is so tightly tied to the loot box.  I certainly won't be purchasing their product and will warn others of this dishonest and harmful business practice of selling loot boxes to non-adults.

Today the KeyForged and tomorrow the Kinder Surprise.

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Your sources are no sources, just some article where people talk about the same stuff. A source would be an undeniable fact, not some wall of text with no proof. Please provide real sources for your point if you want to call it that way.

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9 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

We should call out FFG now for their irresponsible business practices before Legislation catches up (which it will in the next few years).  Keyforge to me is ultimately a failed product BECAUSE its main mechanic is so tightly tied to the loot box.  I certainly won't be purchasing their product and will warn others of this dishonest and harmful business practice of selling loot boxes to non-adults.

LOL, the same lame arguments that have been made about baseball cards for decades. If you understood how the game works, you'd realize just how ridiculous your argument is.

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1 hour ago, sabrjay said:

LOL, the same lame arguments that have been made about baseball cards for decades. If you understood how the game works, you'd realize just how ridiculous your argument is.

The same arguments that video game companies such as EA make defending Loot Boxes.  You see how well that is holding up in the EU like in Belgium.

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3 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

The same arguments that video game companies such as EA make defending Loot Boxes.  You see how well that is holding up in the EU like in Belgium.

I don't care about EA they haven't done a good game in a decade.

I think that the EA Loot Box often had something of little or no value it was classed as gambling. KeyForge contains 37 cards, each and every time and each deck has the same value, if the cards cost 10c to make each then each deck costs $3.70 to make.

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Yeah, I'm not worried about this. Calling it "GAMBLING" is ridiculous, gambling is when you take a chance for money. No one is going to profit anything off Keyforge except for playing the game to have a bit of fun. If someone cares that much about having the best deck, that philosophy will not get them far.

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2 minutes ago, JoeyBriefcase said:

Yeah, I'm not worried about this. Calling it "GAMBLING" is ridiculous, gambling is when you take a chance for money. No one is going to profit anything off Keyforge except for playing the game to have a bit of fun. If someone cares that much about having the best deck, that philosophy will not get them far.

Your definition is not aligned with the one on Wikipedia.

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Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the primary intent of winning money or material goods.

Gambling does not require the wager of money for winning more money.  It can also be the wager of money for material goods such as Loot Boxes and Blind Boxes.

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OK, I admit I was click bated into this.... I feel ashamed for looking now because this is the most idiotic rhetoric I have seen in a long time. If time is money then you owe me $2 for the time I spent reading this crap. I gambled here too I guess because I thought I was going to get some valuable knowledge or insight, but you just wasted my time, give me my $2 back! 

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18 minutes ago, Dantastic24 said:

OK, I admit I was click bated into this.... I feel ashamed for looking now because this is the most idiotic rhetoric I have seen in a long time. If time is money then you owe me $2 for the time I spent reading this crap. I gambled here too I guess because I thought I was going to get some valuable knowledge or insight, but you just wasted my time, give me my $2 back! 

It was pretty obvious what the thread will contain, given that we have the same thread in the Discover thread and until one week ago in this one.

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YAWN!!!!!!

Were you making these complaints in 1993 when Magic: the Gathering was released? CCG’s have been doing this for years, why now make a complaint against a game that is doing a random system better?

Furthermore, where’s your complaint against X-Wing, Armada, Destiny and Legion, where you pay money to literally roll dice and win prizes?

Are you going to ignore this post again like you did in the Discover thread? Truth be told, I think my observation of your double standard is about as effective as your OP. Good luck getting the game banned in Europe, or whatever it is that you’re trying to accomplish.

P.S. I bought Discover and got a fully playable game. Just like I will get when I get my KeyForge core set. No gambling involved for me if I know exactly what I’m getting. 

tl;dr - Wrong

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1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:

Were you making these complaints in 1993 when Magic: the Gathering was released? CCG’s have been doing this for years, why now make a complaint against a game that is doing a random system better?

Same place as government legislators when CS:Go and TF2 added gambling loot boxes into their games.  Just because game companies have been getting away with adding gambling to their strategy, doesn't mean they will forever be allowed to.

1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:

 Furthermore, where’s your complaint against X-Wing, Armada, Destiny and Legion, where you pay money to literally roll dice and win prizes?

X-Wing, Armada, and Legion do not require players to gamble in order to purchase product.  Its curious you included SW Destiny as that game DOES require gambling loot boxes to purchase product.  So I certainly have complaints about SW Destiny.

1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:

 Are you going to ignore this post again like you did in the Discover thread? Truth be told, I think my observation of your double standard is about as effective as your OP. Good luck getting the game banned in Europe, or whatever it is that you’re trying to accomplish.

I only respond to people who are generally respectful.  Posts that have logical fallacies and personal attacks do not warrant my response.  Please provide proof that I have double standards.  I guess you can only do that if you actually understand what gambling is.  Please have a read of the sources that I linked before attempting a response.

1 hour ago, TheSpitfired said:

 P.S. I bought Discover and got a fully playable game. Just like I will get when I get my KeyForge core set. No gambling involved for me if I know exactly what I’m getting. 

Did you know all of the contents of your Discover box before making a purchase?  IE, what tiles you were getting, what quests, etc.  If you did not, then you in fact were gambling in order to get product.  If you purchased another Discover box, you would have received a completely different set of tiles, quests, etc.  That is the definition of a blind box / loot box.

Edited by Lace Jetstreamer

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11 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Just because game companies have been getting away with adding gambling to their strategy, doesn't mean they will forever be allowed to.

Not with you on the case, that's for sure.

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47 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Did you know all of the contents of your Discover box before making a purchase?  IE, what tiles you were getting, what quests, etc.  If you did not, then you in fact were gambling in order to get product.  If you purchased another Discover box, you would have received a completely different set of tiles, quests, etc.  That is the definition of a blind box / loot box.

For it to be gambling there would have to be a chance that the game I bought wasn’t complete, and I had to go buy other randomized “Discover” packs to complete my game. I would think about conceding your point if that was the case, but it is not. All the parts of the game you mentioned, I received them. Just like the KeyForge purchases I will be receiving. I will be able to play the game with exactly what I get, end of story. There are no randomized extra things to buy in the hopes of completing the products I will receive. It’s a full complete product from the get go. That’s not gambling.

Also, you don’t get to dodge my question about other FFG games. Why aren’t you rallying against gambling in X-Wing, Armada, Destiny and Legion? When  you pay in to a tournament you don’t know that you will win the prizes. In the same vein of your gambling concerns aren’t they just fancy ways of shooting craps?

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2 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

For it to be gambling there would have to be a chance that the game I bought wasn’t complete, and I had to go buy other randomized “Discover” packs to complete my game. I would think about conceding your point if that was the case, but it is not. All the parts of the game you mentioned, I received them. Just like the KeyForge purchases I will be receiving. I will be able to play the game with exactly what I get, end of story. There are no randomized extra things to buy in the hopes of completing the products I will receive. It’s a full complete product from the get go. That’s not gambling.

Where is the definition you are getting that requires the random contents to only be a partial game?  That isn't the definition of gambling.

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Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the primary intent of winning money or material goods.

 

3 minutes ago, TheSpitfired said:

Also, you don’t get to dodge my question about other FFG games. Why aren’t you rallying against gambling in X-Wing, Armada, Destiny and Legion? When  you pay in to a tournament you don’t know that you will win the prizes. In the same vein of your gambling concerns aren’t they just fancy ways of shooting craps?

First, I have already responded to your question.  However, I will elaborate.  First and foremost, x-wing, Armada, and Legion do not use loot boxes / blind boxes for monitizing their products.  Do you disagree with these facts?  Star Wars Destiny DOES use loot box / blind boxes to monitize their product.  Again, I hope you don't disagree with this statement.

As for prizes for competitions, there are very specific rules regarding prizes for competitions.  Every country has their own laws regarding this so I cannot speak to each country.  This is the case in sports, esports, card gaming, and even board gaming.  Its commonly accepted that winning prizes in sporting events, e-sports, card gaming, and board gaming is not considered gambling.  However, if the prizes are winning money, then the laws are different.  I believe in the USA, minors under the age of 16 cannot participate in competitions where money is the prize (like in the Fortnite pro-series).  I don't know if the law deems this activity as gambling, that is something that you are welcome to research and let us know.

If you would like to continue the conversation with me, I suggest that you have a more respectful tone.  Remember, I don't owe you a response.

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10 minutes ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome, with the primary intent of winning money or material goods.

I pay $10 for a deck of cards, each has a fixed cost to make so each deck costs the same. I do not "win" anything.

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1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

 

I only respond to people who are generally respectful.  Posts that have logical fallacies and personal attacks do not warrant my response.  Please provide proof that I have double standards.  I guess you can only do that if you actually understand what gambling is.  Please have a read of the sources that I linked before attempting a response.

Please stop calling your blog entries sources, this hurts my feelings as a scientist.

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Please explain me this with your logic OP

Do you consider the Living Card Games like L5R and AGoT as gambling? You go to a tournament, pay your entry fee and play with cards where the outcome is based on luck as luck defines which card you draw when. All this is so you can win some tournament prices which can be the equivalent of money, e.g. getting the flight to the US for winning nationals corresponds to ~1000 $ to me. Is this also then gambling? If not, how do you see the difference to poker?

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