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Minimono

And tlt is?

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Alright ... I am biting the bullet... I have read a lot about x-wing since Instarted the day 2.0 game out ... but I have not figured out what TLT means... and seems like everyone else know, so this should be easy to answer? 

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4 minutes ago, Minimono said:

Alright ... I am biting the bullet... I have read a lot about x-wing since Instarted the day 2.0 game out ... but I have not figured out what TLT means... and seems like everyone else know, so this should be easy to answer? 

Twin Laser Turret. A turret from the 1st edition of the game that is not in the 2nd edition.

Edited by Nspace

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3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I could almost see a return of some kind of "twin" laser turret, so long as "twin" means two firing arcs, rather than two attacks.

Hmm. Bowtie, single attack, 3 Red, Range 2-3, option to either accept the role or, after dice have been modded but before the cancel dice step,  convert one hit or crit to deal a damage and cancel the remaining results. Might still be too potent...

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Twin Laser Turret:  single turret arc, attack value 3, range 2-3.  After this attack hits, cancel all dice results, and the defender suffers one (HIT) damage.  You may spend a green token to perform this attack again as a bonus attack against a different target.

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38 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Twin Laser Turret:  single turret arc, attack value 3, range 2-3.  After this attack hits, cancel all dice results, and the defender suffers one (HIT) damage.  You may spend a green token to perform this attack again as a bonus attack against a different target.

To me, this is basically Bistan built-in.  I kinda don't like that.  I think two attacks from a single, easy card is fundamentally game-warping.  The Veteran [T] Gunners, a VCX with an Attack Shuttle, Bistan, or Han Solo (even with Roark) all have a lot of conditions on them.  I think it'd be easier to balance things of the turrets and the bonus attacks are kept separate.

But this is me liking... let's say chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.  Someone else might have their own favorite flavor.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Hmm. Bowtie, single attack, 3 Red, Range 2-3, option to either accept the role or, after dice have been modded but before the cancel dice step,  convert one hit or crit to deal a damage and cancel the remaining results. Might still be too potent...

My version is either:

  • 2 red, range 2-3, bowtie double-arc.  Provides a rotate action.  No special rules.
    • It's a Dorsal Turret with more total coverage, but a donut hole.
  • 3 red, range 2-3, bowtie double-arc.  Provides a rotate action.  Special rule: "If this attack hits, cancel all but one remaining [hit] or [crit] results."
    • So this rolls full dice, but caps at a single damage.
  • In either case, I don't start figuring on points less than 10, and probably even still 12.

//

To that end, my version of a 2e Synced Turret.  3 red dice, Range 1-2.  Single arc.  No special rules.  Does *NOT* provide a white rotate action, but a white Lock action which links into a red Rotate.  So you'd have better action efficiency than other turrets when you want to rotate, as well as gaining access to a Lock action on something like an Attack Shuttle.  However, you don't necessarily have a stress-free way to rotate your firing arc (which would help against Han-gunner Kavil).  Red-only-rotate is bad on the Jumpmaster, since the blues are terrible, and it's the only gun on the ship.  But as an upgrade to a ship which has an existing primary weapon, and with the option to just take the easier Dorsal Turret, I think that's fair.  This also probably costs like 10 points.

//

And I've really taken things off-topic for a rules thread...

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22 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

2 red, range 2-3, bowtie double-arc.  Provides a rotate action.  No special rules.

  • It's a Dorsal Turret with more total coverage, but a donut hole.

 

Trying to imagine hitting something at range 3 with a 2 die attack... Still, like you stated, we're fairly off topic from the OP's original "What is tlt?" post. :)

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Trying to imagine hitting something at range 3 with a 2 die attack... Still, like you stated, we're fairly off topic from the OP's original "What is tlt?" post. :)

In 2e, even Soontir Fel can blank out at range 3. ;)

It gets to the heart of a question of what a potential 2e TLT should be.  Should it be a means to deal damage, or should it be about arc coverage and nothing more.  For myself, I lean towards arc coverage.  Having wide, long-range arcs doesn't seem so bad, if you can't deal much damage with it.  That means no built-in bonus attacks, no matter the restrictions.  It shouldn't be easier to double-tap with a turret upgrade on any generic fighter than on the Millennium Falcon or a Decimator or so forth.  I feel like the problem with the 1e TLT was not that it had the most area coverage (it did), but that it consistently dealt the most damage in almost every situation.

//

I suppose this wraps things back to the original question from @Minimono .  In 1e, the Twin Laser Turret could attack twice, and while these attacks didn't deal more than one damage, they had a decent chance to hit, and hit twice.  A cap of 2 damage doesn't sound too bad, until you think about "how consistently can any of my normal attacks deal 2 damage per round?" and so you start to see the problem.  It radically over-punished low-agility ships, and had lots of ugly interactions with other game effects.

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While TLTs would still be a good card in 2e, don't forget two major changes to the game:

  • Turrets have a firing arc and it's a (potentially red) action to turn them.
  • Range bonuses apply to turrets now.

The main problem with TLTs was "If I can hit them, they can hit me and I cannot improve my chances." IIRC that was why autothrusters were so important.

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3 hours ago, GermanBlackbot said:

While TLTs would still be a good card in 2e, don't forget two major changes to the game:

  • Turrets have a firing arc and it's a (potentially red) action to turn them.
  • Range bonuses apply to turrets now.

The main problem with TLTs was "If I can hit them, they can hit me and I cannot improve my chances." IIRC that was why autothrusters were so important.

Exactly, right now, TLT would be far less good with dodge possibility...

The problem was really the fact that a regular attack would give a defense dice but not the TLT. Add the fact that they would be in a 1 turret arc, it diminish the potency a lot and make them arc dodgable. Plus the range 1 being void, they would be way way way less potent. People have to stop thinking old stuff is still good, the removal of the 360 shot changed the game a lot.

I dare you try to bring TLT with one arc against an alpha strike of Proton Torpedo powered by Jendon... 

Seriously, turret right now are lack luster, like a lot, range 2 max for a 2d attack in one arc... come on. TIE Aggressor are kind of dead right now because of that...

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5 hours ago, GermanBlackbot said:

While TLTs would still be a good card in 2e, don't forget two major changes to the game:

  • Turrets have a firing arc and it's a (potentially red) action to turn them.
  • Range bonuses apply to turrets now.

The main problem with TLTs was "If I can hit them, they can hit me and I cannot improve my chances." IIRC that was why autothrusters were so important.

The range bonus isn't as strong as Autothrusters were, and most aces can't token stack either.  1e style TLT chip damage would still be quite potent, maybe even stronger.

Meanwhile, side arcs are pretty huge, particularly at Range 3.

2 hours ago, muribundi said:

Exactly, right now, TLT would be far less good with dodge possibility...

The problem was really the fact that a regular attack would give a defense dice but not the TLT. Add the fact that they would be in a 1 turret arc, it diminish the potency a lot and make them arc dodgable. Plus the range 1 being void, they would be way way way less potent. People have to stop thinking old stuff is still good, the removal of the 360 shot changed the game a lot.

I dare you try to bring TLT with one arc against an alpha strike of Proton Torpedo powered by Jendon... 

Seriously, turret right now are lack luster, like a lot, range 2 max for a 2d attack in one arc... come on. TIE Aggressor are kind of dead right now because of that...

It's not like TLT spam Aggressors were the counter to Harpoon Missile alpha strike in 1e, why would it be a counter in 2e?

Should there be somewhat better options for turret weapons?  Sure.  But the 1e style double-attacks of the TLT should be dead and buried.

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Theoretically could something like this be balanced in 2.0?

"3 red, 2-3 range. Turret rotating arc.

When this attack hits cancel all dice and deal 1 damage.

If this attack misses perform this attack again."

You would never be able to double tap it as the second attack of it would be your bonus attack for the round. It would be fairly good at dealing 1 damage but never more.

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8 minutes ago, mcgreag said:

Theoretically could something like this be balanced in 2.0?

"3 red, 2-3 range. Turret rotating arc.

When this attack hits cancel all dice and deal 1 damage.

If this attack misses perform this attack again."

You would never be able to double tap it as the second attack of it would be your bonus attack for the round. It would be fairly good at dealing 1 damage but never more.

So Bossk gunner as a turret just without the stress.

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The original point of the TLT was to be likely to hit but unlikely to cause serious damage. One of its flaws is that it ended up being more lethal vs. low-agility ships than to high ones, especially with Autothrusters in the mix. I think the most straightforward change to achieve that goal is to allow the second attack (vs. the same ship) only if the first misses.

I don't like keeping the range 2-3 though.

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Just now, DR4CO said:

But with a max of 1 damage. It might actually be okay.

I didn't say it was bad. Just interesting and would probably be quite costly. Bossk is 10 pts, causes a stress and is also mandatory (as the suggested wording for the TLT rework is). Taking that into account and that the turret is unlikely to be limited I'm thinking it'd be in the 10-12pt range unless there is another mitigating factor in the design.

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I think a 2 dice range 1-3 turret that you can attack twice with as a bonus attack wouldn't be to bad if costed appropriately.  Maybe even put the donut hole back if the idea of an extra die at range one being a problem.

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TLT would probably be fine at 16 points with its same effect considering how much 2e nerfed turrets. Just make the 2nd attack a bonus attack. In fact I actually think it would be pretty terrible (for the person using it). 

People are still having a hard time remembering that turrets don't have 360 coverage anymore or range bonus immunity when they are evaluating old cards from 1e like TLT and Dash. 

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