Jump to content
bblaney001

Rise of the Separtist's release date?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

You're making a massive logical leap while ignoring all of the things that occur, as though there is a direct line between Holdo (not Hondo, thanks Jedi Ronin) not providing Poe with answers and him telling the plan to Finn and Rose (and DJ). Are you under the impression that Poe is the one in the right here?

Poe defies Leia's orders and costs the Resistance their entire bomber fleet; then demands answers from a superior officer in violation of the chain of command; then defies his superiors by telling Finn and Rose to go on an unauthorized mission; then reveals the Resistance's escape plan over the communicator; then conducts a mutiny which is ended by Leia waking up and stunning him. 

But it is Holdo's bad leadership that is the problem? Not Poe's reckless and willful disregard for the chain of command? 

Edited by Vek Baustrade
Typos were made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I dont know what needed to be done. So I cant say. But leaving him with no task resulted in a whole lot of needless deaths because he acted in a predictable fashion to no indication of a plan. He is a pilot so maybe task him with flying a shuttle.

So, the busy work you would give him to avoid breaking the plan that he isn’t supposed to be privy to...is to stick him at the forefront of that plan....

 

20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So your premise is the smart move was to leave the loose cannon to behave like a loose cannon and completely screw up your plans? That sounds like terrible leadership that gets a bunch of people needlessly killed. That could have been easily prevented with a little forethought. Something I expect from an Admiral.

Because an admiral holds that rank, you expect one to foresee someone sending a loose ally and a mechanic off on a secret mission that will result in them hearing sensitive information over open comms in front of an opportunist who trades that information for escape?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Nytwyng said:

So, the busy work you would give him to avoid breaking the plan that he isn’t supposed to be privy to...is to stick him at the forefront of that plan....

 

Because an admiral holds that rank, you expect one to foresee someone sending a loose ally and a mechanic off on a secret mission that will result in them hearing sensitive information over open comms in front of an opportunist who trades that information for escape?

I expect her to have the leadership ability to predict how a known quantity will behave. It is not like Poe was an unknown quatity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Holdo came up through the New Republic Navy, the new Republic is so factious they have political groups who actively support the first order in their government, at least before Starkiller base decapitated the government. Also Holdo just assumed command she hadn't even met the senior staff of the Raddas before taking command she can't have insight on many of the crews personalities.

Not to mention, she’s been friends with Leia since their mid-teens. (She was introduced in Leia: Princess of Alderaan.) Hard to get much more connected with the Resistance than being lifelong friends with the woman who formed and leads it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I expect her to have the leadership ability to predict how a known quantity will behave. It is not like Poe was an unknown quatity

To the best of her knowledge, successfully predicting Poe’s behavior would not have included anything that couldn’t be dealt with.

What part of sending Rose and Finn off into the circumstances described was predictable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

To the best of her knowledge, successfully predicting Poe’s behavior would not have included anything that couldn’t be dealt with.

What part of sending Rose and Finn off into the circumstances described was predictable?

No but knowing a loose cannon is problematic unless it is tied down to a purpose means that the whole Rose Finn incident wouldn't happen. And hey maybe he would have had Rose talk to Holdo about the tracking. But by bruising Poes ego and behaving in a way to drive him towards acting out went poorly. Being a better leader would have harnessed Poe's abilities instead of leaving them to act in a hot headed manner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

To the best of her knowledge, successfully predicting Poe’s behavior would not have included anything that couldn’t be dealt with.

What part of sending Rose and Finn off into the circumstances described was predictable?

No matter what, leaders are ultimately responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

Edited by HappyDaze

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

No matter what, leaders are ultimately responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

Exactly and they teach stuff like this in officer schools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

No but knowing a loose cannon is problematic unless it is tied down to a purpose means that the whole Rose Finn incident wouldn't happen.

From context, it appears that his task was holding vigil over his mentor’s bedside. When Rose and Finn spoke to him, he was in the med bay, watching over Leia.

 

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

hey maybe he would have had Rose talk to Holdo about the tracking.

So his conscious decision to take matters in his own hands is her fault?

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

But by bruising Poes ego and behaving in a way to drive him towards acting out went poorly. Being a better leader would have harnessed Poe's abilities instead of leaving them to act in a hot headed manner.

Once again, what part of his decision was remotely predictable? With the information at hand, any rash actions on Poe’s part could be easily contained.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

You're making a massive logical leap while ignoring all of the things that occur, as though there is a direct line between Hondo not providing Poe with answers and him telling the plan to Finn and Rose (and DJ). Are you under the impression that Poe is the one in the right here?

Poe defies Leia's orders and costs the Resistance their entire bomber fleet; then demands answers from a superior officer in violation of the chain of command; then defies his superiors by telling Finn and Rose to go on an unauthorized mission; then reveals the Resistance's escape plan over the communicator; then conducts a mutiny which is ended by Leia waking up and stunning him. 

But it is Holdo's bad leadership that is the problem? Not Poe's reckless and willful disregard for the chain of command? 

No I am not. But I am holding the leader responsible for bad leadership choices that resulted in bad outcomes. And as Happydaze pointed out the leader is responsible for all the actions of the subordinates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

From context, it appears that his task was holding vigil over his mentor’s bedside. When Rose and Finn spoke to him, he was in the med bay, watching over Leia.

 

So his conscious decision to take matters in his own hands is her fault?

Once again, what part of his decision was remotely predictable? With the information at hand, any rash actions on Poe’s part could be easily contained.

 

a leader is responsible for the bad acts of subordinates. And I dont see that as his task. I see him having no task so he stood vigil till had another option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Exactly and they teach stuff like this in officer schools.

So, rewrite the events.

With the knowledge that she had, what should Holdo have done? Be specific. No generalized, “She shouldn’t have bruised his ego.” What, specifically, should she have done? No vague, “Give him a task.” What should she have assigned him to do that would not involve him in the plan that he wasn’t to know about until it was necessary?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

a leader is responsible for the bad acts of subordinates. And I dont see that as his task. I see him having no task so he stood vigil till had another option.

Yeah, she sacrificed her life in order to make up for the bad acts of her subordinates and  to give the resistance a chance to fight again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

No matter what, leaders are ultimately responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

Yes, they are accountable to their own superiors. Holdo's superior is Leia. And who did Leia side with?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

You're making a massive logical leap while ignoring all of the things that occur, as though there is a direct line between Hondo not providing Poe with answers and him telling the plan to Finn and Rose (and DJ). Are you under the impression that Poe is the one in the right here?

They should have reached out to Hondo (Onaka).  I bet he could have solved their problems!

(I couldn't resist, that made me chuckle for some reason).

Edited by Jedi Ronin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

They should have reached out to Hondo (Onaka).  I bet he could have solved their problems!

Lol! I didn't even notice the autocorrect. You're right. Hondo would've made out like a bandit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Nytwyng said:

So, rewrite the events.

With the knowledge that she had, what should Holdo have done? Be specific. No generalized, “She shouldn’t have bruised his ego.” What, specifically, should she have done? No vague, “Give him a task.” What should she have assigned him to do that would not involve him in the plan that he wasn’t to know about until it was necessary?

She should have included him in the plan in some manner. Maybe by having him help plan the shuttle flight. Then when Finn and Rose go to him about the hyperspace tracking Holdo could have used that knowledge to adjust her plan. Maybe by transferring  most of the crew from the ship running out fuel and have those ships jump with a skeleton crew to some system. If the first order follows that is less ships where they are. If they dont follow that ship can be recovered and refueled and is not lost. While not a guarantee it improves the odds instead of just writing off the whole fleet. added bonus if that ship is not followed it can make the call. And have theses jumps all to different systems dividing up the first order. The first order knows which ship is the flag ship let it be the first to jump away. It is likely that is the ship that would be followed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

a leader is responsible for the bad acts of subordinates.

Which is an entirely different concept than being a bad leader.

5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And I dont see that as his task. I see him having no task so he stood vigil till had another option.

Perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn’t. With the destruction of the fighter complement, his options were limited, agreed. Maybe he was down there pouting, maybe he was assigned to watch over her due to his loyalty to her (loyalty which still didn’t prevent his disobeying her direct orders, btw...so either Leia is also a “bad leader,” or even good leaders can see subordinates act badly).

At any rate, his reaction to a superior saying, “You were demoted by my predecessor because you went off half-cocked. You’ll know what I have planned when you need to. Now let me do my job.” is all on him.

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No I am not. But I am holding the leader responsible for bad leadership choices that resulted in bad outcomes. 

But you’re not holding Poe responsible for his own bad leadership choices that resulted in bad outcomes...his very character arc in the movie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Which is an entirely different concept than being a bad leader.

Perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn’t. With the destruction of the fighter complement, his options were limited, agreed. Maybe he was down there pouting, maybe he was assigned to watch over her due to his loyalty to her (loyalty which still didn’t prevent his disobeying her direct orders, btw...so either Leia is also a “bad leader,” or even good leaders can see subordinates act badly).

At any rate, his reaction to a superior saying, “You were demoted by my predecessor because you went off half-cocked. You’ll know what I have planned when you need to. Now let me do my job.” is all on him.

But you’re not holding Poe responsible for his own bad leadership choices that resulted in bad outcomes...his very character arc in the movie.

No I am. There is plenty of wrong done by Poe. But a lot of it is the direct result of bad leadership. Those bad decisions could have been directed in better directions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

She should have included him in the plan in some manner. Maybe by having him help plan the shuttle flight. Then when Finn and Rose go to him about the hyperspace tracking Holdo could have used that knowledge to adjust her plan. Maybe by transferring  most of the crew from the ship running out fuel and have those ships jump with a skeleton crew to some system. If the first order follows that is less ships where they are. If they dont follow that ship can be recovered and refueled and is not lost. While not a guarantee it improves the odds instead of just writing off the whole fleet. added bonus if that ship is not followed it can make the call. And have theses jumps all to different systems dividing up the first order. The first order knows which ship is the flag ship let it be the first to jump away. It is likely that is the ship that would be followed.

So she should reward someone who’d just been demoted for challenging her authority and demanding information he’s not entitled to.

That’s good leadership?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Daeglan said:

No I am. There is plenty of wrong done by Poe. But a lot of it is the direct result of bad leadership. Those bad decisions could have been directed in better directions.

You’re proceeding from a premise that hasn’t been established: that Holdo demonstrated bad leadership.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

So she should reward someone who’d just been demoted for challenging her authority and demanding information he’s not entitled to.

That’s good leadership?

No that isnt a reward. It is putting him to work with the knowledge that idle hotheads make bad decisions. Bad decisions are dangerous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

No that isnt a reward. It is putting him to work with the knowledge that idle hotheads make bad decisions. Bad decisions are dangerous.

For the record, we've moved from bad writing to bad leadership to bad decisions. I'd like to look at that as progress, but I suspect it's only moving goalposts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No that isnt a reward. It is putting him to work with the knowledge that idle hotheads make bad decisions. Bad decisions are dangerous.

Subordinate who has recently been demoted for disobeying orders resulting in unnecessary deaths and loss of equipment gets in new leader’s face, demanding information he isn’t entitled to.

New leader says, “Okay. Here...be a part of the information you’re not entitled to,” instead of, “Cool your jets and know your role.”

That’s not rewarding bad behavior? That’s not bad leadership? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...