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Rise of the Separtist's release date?

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7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

and yet she immediately proceeds to outfly tie fighters who have trained Ungrouped Minion pilots...soooo yeah.

Everything makes sense, from a certain point of view...😋

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1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

You're right, you should be ignored.  Welcome to my block list.  Thanks for making it abundantly clear your contributions to meaningful discourse are absolutely nil.

I find it interesting that one can go into detail with there issues none of which have anything to do with the character sex. Can list lots of great female leads they do like and the only argument presented is you must be a misogynist. It cant be that you find the way the character is presented and written is garbage. No it must be you hate women. I see this attitude a lot lately. If you don't like a character it must be based on some inconsequential aspect of the character that you never brought up. Not any of the reasons you stated.

Edited by Daeglan

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24 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

and yet she immediately proceeds to outfly tie fighters who have trained pilots...soooo yeah. they immediately negate their own narrative that Rey is supposed to not know how to fly then suddenly she is able to pull off amazing aerobatics immediately following that. And again the falcon is no worse for wear after words.

Except that narratively it’s explicitly stated both in the movie and novelization that Rey is a trained pilot. She does know how to fly, having trained herself using a simulator. 

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4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that narratively it’s explicitly stated both in the movie and novelization that Rey is a trained pilot. She does know how to fly, having trained herself using a simulator. 

That is not really a trained pilot. This is from a guy who flies simulators and has several pilot friends. A simulator can teach you a lot. but it is no substitute for real flying in real situations.

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21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

there is however lightsaber training in the book for Empire. So I am pretty sure they intended for there to be lightsaber training. Also look at how Luke fights on Bespin. Clearly he has had some lightsaber training. As he actually did fairly well considering the vast difference in likely skill levels. The problem is at that time Yoda was a puppet. and there are serious issues with the puppetry level available to them.

See, you're doing it again.

You are pretty sure they intended to included a lightsaber training, but in the end they didn't do it. There is still no training at all in the movie, nor any allusion that there was. You are only assuming to fit the narative of the movie. Based on what? How Luke actually fight during the Bespin scene. Your reasoning is: 'Oh, looks like Luke knows how to fight, he probably learned how to duirng his couple of days/weeks of training on Dagobah.' You are assuming based on the skills shown on screen.

Now, let's do the same exercise with Rey's piloting skills. Before even getting on the Falcon, she says she's a pilot. You are free to doubt her words, but she still says she is a pilot. She then goes to expertfully pilot the Falcon. Your reasoning in this case is: 'Oh, looks like Rey knows how to pilot (she did says she does), but that's impossible! I demand an explanation for it!' After the scene she says that it's not the first time she flew and later on, we learn that she has the Force. But you still don't want to believe that she knows how to fly. As if you simply don't want to believe it. As if you don't want to accept it. And if we are to include novelization in the explaination (like you did with Luke training), again, it is stated in the book 'Before the Awakening' that she spent a lot of time in flight simulators. So there is plenty of explaination in the movie and books that Rey knows how to fly, you just choose not to listen to it and prefer the simple explanation that she is a Mary Sue.

And we can do it again with Rey's combat skills. You assume that Luke got trained in lightsaber combat because he showed some skills. Why can't you accept that Rey learned how to fight by growing up on Jakku where she had to defend herself? In one case, you are okay with Luke being able to fight by assuming he got some training (even though it's never shown nor said), but on the other you are not okay with Rey knowing how to fight (even though it is shown earlier in the movie that she does indeed know how to fight). Here we have the idea that Luke somehow had to work hard and train for his combat skills (even though it's never shown nor said) but Rey is a Mary Sue because she knows how to fight (even though it's shown in the movie that she comes from a planet where you better know how to fight if you are to grow up alone). In one case you assume, in the other you are not okay with it even though there is anb explanation in the movie.

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2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'm claiming it's misogyny because of a portion of those detractors pretty much saying it's misogyny, and even they have taken "issue" with those female protagonists you listed.  Many of whom didn't get this level of vitriol because the culture of the time didn't permit openly crass misogyny as "acceptable alternate opinions."

And from your posts, it's abundantly clear I've done far more critical thinking about the matter than you are ever likely to, since you're obviously still stuck in your bias against Rey in spite of evidence that your bias may be unfounded.

@Stan FreshAnd here is another example.

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10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Yet misogyny keeps being brought forward as the reason people dont like Rey. it was done here by @Donovan Morningfire Sooo who is lying?

To be fair, there is a vocal segment of those who don’t like the character that do display misogynistic behavior in expressing their views. This would be the same segment that displayed such behavior towards Kelly Marie Tran, ultimately driving her from social media. They would also be of the same mind as those who threw hissy fits that Brie Larson’s Captain Marvel was presented as stone-faced in tense situations and that she “didn’t smile more,” or those I just read about today, who edited a bootleg copy of Avengers: Endgame to remove Captain Marvel, other elements of female agency, scientific dialogue “not essential to the movie,” and “gay $h!t.”

Doesn’t mean that you necessarily fall into that category, but that those people exist, and they present themselves vocally, and can appear to represent a significant portion of those speaking out against the character.

Edited by Nytwyng

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6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sooo who is lying?

You are, given that I never said misogyny was the only reason (as you claim) people dump on Rey or pick apart her on-screen moments while glossing over Luke and Anakin's on-screen moments.  But it is a reason.  Maybe not your reason (that seems to just be plain bull-headed ignorance on your part), but it is a reason.  It's also one of the reasons that Brie Larson's Captain Marvel gets attacked despite that her characterization wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow if the character were male.

Heck, you glossed right over Luke's lack of on-screen training by making the assumption that he trained off-screen to be able to stand up to Vader, when going by the films alone as you insist on doing with Rey, there is NOTHING to support that Luke did any additional training while he was on Dagobah apart from what we saw.  You just assume that "well, Luke was able to stand up to Vader in ESB and defeat in RotJ, there for he must have trained off-screen" while insisting that because we never saw Rey do an serious training that she couldn't have done it off-screen.  For that matter, we never see Anakin put in moment of training during the prequels, and yet folks such as yourself have no issue with assuming "it happened off-screen." So in this instance, you're making a lie of omission to support a false equivalency.

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4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

To be fair, there is a vocal segment of those who don’t like the character that do display misogynistic behavior in expressing their views. This would be the same segment that displayed such behavior towards Kelly Marie Tran, ultimately driving her from social media. They would also be of the same mind as those who threw hissy fits that Brie Larson’s Captain Marvel was presented as stone-faced in tense situations and that she “didn’t smile more,” or those I just read about today, who edited a bootleg copy of Avengers: Endgame to remove Captain Marvel, other elements of female agency, scientific dialogue “not essential to the movie,” and “gay $h!t.”

Doesn’t mean that you necessarily fall into that category, but that those people exist, and they present themselves vocally, and can appear to represent a significant portion of those speaking out against the character.

Sure they do. But it just ends up being an ad hominem attack when you list your issues and the response is to lump you with the misogynists.

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3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

You are, given that I never said misogyny was the only reason (as you claim) people dump on Rey or pick apart her on-screen moments while glossing over Luke and Anakin's on-screen moments.  But it is a reason.  Maybe not your reason (that seems to just be plain bull-headed ignorance on your part), but it is a reason.  It's also one of the reasons that Brie Larson's Captain Marvel gets attacked despite that her characterization wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow if the character were male.

Heck, you glossed right over Luke's lack of on-screen training by making the assumption that he trained off-screen to be able to stand up to Vader, when going by the films alone as you insist on doing with Rey, there is NOTHING to support that Luke did any additional training while he was on Dagobah apart from what we saw.  You just assume that "well, Luke was able to stand up to Vader in ESB and defeat in RotJ, there for he must have trained off-screen" while insisting that because we never saw Rey do an serious training that she couldn't have done it off-screen.  For that matter, we never see Anakin put in moment of training during the prequels, and yet folks such as yourself have no issue with assuming "it happened off-screen." So in this instance, you're making a lie of omission to support a false equivalency.

And there you go ignoring what I actually said about Luke Anakin and Rey and the differences between them. And then make a ad hominem attack. Good job. How bout you actual address the complaints instead of making repeated ad hominem attacks.

For example I did not gloss over Luke not training on screen the narrative that he is a good pilot is established early on. For example Ben Mentions it. Biggs mentions it. He talks about flying beggars canyon. him damaging his skyhopper is why he wanted to go to tosche station for power converters. So no i did not gloss anything over.

Edited by Daeglan

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Just now, Daeglan said:

And there you go ignoring what I actually said about Luke Anakin and Rey and the differences between them. And then make a ad hominem attack. Good job. How bout you actual address the complaints instead of making repeated ad hominem attacks.

Considering that the “complaints” have been addressed, but that’s met with dismissal, application of a double standard, and/or moving of goalposts....

You don’t like the character. The world will continue to spin. Why the need to prove that it’s anything more than personal taste?

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Just now, Nytwyng said:

Considering that the “complaints” have been addressed, but that’s met with dismissal, application of a double standard, and/or moving of goalposts....

You don’t like the character. The world will continue to spin. Why the need to prove that it’s anything more than personal taste?

They havent really been addressed though. What they did is bring up minor incidents as failures. But they aren't really failures in the same way.  there is not significant loss. Rey just ends up being handed abilities with no effort at all. None really presented in background or in the movie. For example she is able to use influence with no training at all.

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16 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They havent really been addressed though. What they did is bring up minor incidents as failures. But they aren't really failures in the same way.  there is not significant loss. Rey just ends up being handed abilities with no effort at all. None really presented in background or in the movie. For example she is able to use influence with no training at all.

But it’s no different than Luke. Rey’s failures and losses (dismemberment aside, as previously mentioned) parallel Luke’s. He is likewise handed abilities with no effort at all. For example, he is able to telekinetically pull his lightsaber to his hand, not only with no training at all, but when telekinesis hadn’t even been a thing in the movies at all.

Edited by Nytwyng

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Just now, Nytwyng said:

But it’s no different than Luke. Rey’s failures and losses (dismemberment aside, as previously mentioned) parallel Luke’s. He is likewise handed abilities with no effort at all. For example, he is able to telekinetically pull his lightsaber to his hand, not only with no training at all, but when telekinesis hadn’t even been a thing in the movies yet.

barely after years between the movies.

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4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

barely after years between the movies.

And?

Prove to me that Luke trained in the use of a Force power that neither he nor the audience had any reason to believe even existed in that time.

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8 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

But it’s no different than Luke. Rey’s failures and losses (dismemberment aside, as previously mentioned) parallel Luke’s. He is likewise handed abilities with no effort at all. For example, he is able to telekinetically pull his lightsaber to his hand, not only with no training at all, but when telekinesis hadn’t even been a thing in the movies at all.

how many times has Rey had to have her friends bail her out?
Luke had to be rescued by Han on Hoth. Leia on Bespin.
Han had to be Bailed out by everyone at Jabba's palace.
Leia had o be rescued by Luke and Han.

Rey didnt seem to need that even on Starkiller base. As she already freed her self and was I assume looking for a ship. I have seen her need anyone else.

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59 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

That is not really a trained pilot. This is from a guy who flies simulators and has several pilot friends. A simulator can teach you a lot. but it is no substitute for real flying in real situations.

Ah, but we are talking Star wars here, not real life. I think it is pretty safe to assume that Flight Simulators might be more advanced in a Galaxy far far away. We know that Imperial pilots train on those at least.

But if we are playing the real life card. Do you really think that a couple weeks of training would be enough to hold his ground in a lightsaber combat against someone as skilled as Vader? I know I did some fencing for a couple of years, and believe me, it took a lot more than a couple of weeks to get just a little bit decent... and never enough to hold my ground against someone at a National level.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Rey didnt seem to need that even on Starkiller base. As she already freed her self and was I assume looking for a ship. I have seen her need anyone else.

Well, if it was not for Kylo turning on his master, I'm pretty sure Rey would be dead...

Or if Finn was not there on Starkiller to defend Rey after Kylo tossed her in the air, I'm pretty sure she would have been captured again...

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3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

how many times has Rey had to have her friends bail her out?
Luke had to be rescued by Han on Hoth. Leia on Bespin.
Han had to be Bailed out by everyone at Jabba's palace.
Leia had o be rescued by Luke and Han.

Rey didnt seem to need that even on Starkiller base. As she already freed her self and was I assume looking for a ship. I have seen her need anyone else.

Already covered (and obviously ignored), but...

She did need Chewie to get her (and Finn) of off Starkiller base. Without his arrival in the Falcon, she either would have died with the planet, or at best been captured by the First Order when they retrieved Kylo.

She likewise needed him to get off of the Supremacy. She clearly wasn’t in a First Order ship when she arrived on Crait.

On the Supremacy, Snoke was literally tossing her around like a rag doll using the Force. Only Kylo’s intervention to take control and try to persuade her to the dark side saved her life.

She (and the entire Resistance) needed Luke to provide a distraction - and sacrifice his life - for the handful of them to escape.

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