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Rise of the Separtist's release date?

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1 minute ago, Eoen said:

That may be true but I've never heard anything about Mary Sue (maybe some brief mention of Crusher in the 90's) until the alt right started posting click bait articles about the evils of Disney.

The term has been around for decades to refer to characters  very much like Rey. Try looking at TV Tropes or even Wikipedia for a non-political starting point.

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44 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The term has been around for decades to refer to characters  very much like Rey. Try looking at TV Tropes or even Wikipedia for a non-political starting point.

I have seen exactly one discussion of more than 50 videos I've seen on the topic of Rey that is an actually good character critique.  They mostly come off as bad republican propaganda. 

Edited by Eoen

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2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I don't believe I have seen exactly one one discussion of more than 50 videos I've seen on the topic of Rey that is an actually good character critique.  They mostly come off as bad republican propaganda. 

Why do you waste your time even watching that crap? Even with Sturgeon's Law in effect, you should find two good ones out of fifty. And again with the politics. If you are looking for political motivations in everything, then that's what you'll see. I can't stand Episodes VII & VIII, but it has nothing to do with my politics.

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10 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Why do you waste your time even watching that crap? Even with Sturgeon's Law in effect, you should find two good ones out of fifty. And again with the politics. If you are looking for political motivations in everything, then that's what you'll see. I can't stand Episodes VII & VIII, but it has nothing to do with my politics.

I wouldn’t even be playing this game if it wasn’t for episode VII re-sparking my interest in Star Wars. As for Disney, they will soon have released more Star Wars content than Lucas.

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3 hours ago, Drig said:

Why are we doing this here, now in this forum?

Rise of the Separatists. Clone Wars. This book and everything about it have nothing to do with Rey's character development other then yes, she probably should have the universal spec of Scavenger. 

Can we show some restraint in hating these movies. They are part of Star Wars. The end. You can have your own head canon or whatever but it's done. Is telling people that Rey is a Mary Sue new information? How is blasting this at us any different then a non-nerdy person yelling at us that RPG is adults playing make believe. If you don't like it or agree with it then whatever. That's your choice but it's entertainment and some people found it entertaining. 

I don't care that my entertainment has flaws. RPG has flaws. Whatever. This stuff is fatiguing. It's becoming bullying and I'm so over it.

I have an easy time ignoring all of this because the exact same thing happened with the prequel trilogy.  Exact same thing.

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

Why do you waste your time even watching that crap? Even with Sturgeon's Law in effect, you should find two good ones out of fifty. And again with the politics. If you are looking for political motivations in everything, then that's what you'll see. I can't stand Episodes VII & VIII, but it has nothing to do with my politics.

I've looked a little of this garbage from "both sides" and they're basically mirrors of each other and they feed off of and need each other.  I really liked VII and VIII (thought they could have been better) and the new characters but to each their own.  Not everything you like or hate has to be some totem for some cause political or otherwise you're really into as well.

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1 hour ago, Khazadune said:

Nope. Luke and Anakin are repeatedly shown to be training and honing skills. When they tried to have Anakin do the same thing as a child they got raked over the coals, and the phantom menace was lambasted. Don't let time cloud your memory. 

Luke had exactly 30 seconds of training before he's deflecting blaster bolts.  He has bush piloting experience and has shot some defenseless animals, yet with no actual training takes on the Empire, blows TIEs out of the air and successfully blows up the Death Star.  With no training, he uses a force move ability to pull his lightsaber to him in order to escape the wampa on Hoth.  That's textbook wish fulfillment BS.

Anakin has no training, has never raced before, but wins the podrace despite the pod being assembled by children and having a couple malfunctions.  He, younger than Luke, and with less piloting experience, flies a starfighter into space, engages in combat and blows up a droid command ship saving the day.  That's worse than Luke.  And while phantom menace was lambasted, not once was anyone throwing the Mary Sue, Marty/Gary/Larry Stu card around.  The movie was bad, not the portrayal of just the one character.

In both cases, the concept of a male hero that can do amazing things without any training, without any valid reason, without any explanation as a form of wish fulfillment was just universally accepted (as it almost always is).  Rey's skills and abilities are explained just as well as Luke's.  Rey's participation in the movies actually makes way more sense than Luke's.

While Rey may come off as a little more Mary Sue than Luke, she's definitely less so than young Anakin.

Are there issues with Ep7 and Ep8? Ayup.  Is Rey being a Mary Sue one of them?  Sure, if you are also willing to level that critique against the OT and the PT about Luke and Anakin.  To say that any one of these is a wish fulfillment character while arguing that the others are not is just straight up ridiculous.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

That you came to that conclusion of what a Mary Sue is says more about the political leanings of your sources than anything else. There are far more neutral descriptions of what a Mary Sue is that predate the social justice wars, and Rey scores very highly on any of those score cards.

When the majority of mary sue arguments early on were coming from gamergate and incel folk, it's not hard to spot a trend.  These folks leveled all sorts of complaints against Rey that came off as very sexist, and only after the term Mary Sue was leveled against her did they adopt it en mass as if it had always been their argument.  Only after these folks trotted that story out hard did anyone else really start to throw the Mary Sue label at Rey.  The talking head propaganda of the initial sexist take on the subject fed into common culture and stoked the fires.  The general public hears it enough that it becomes 'fact' for them, and they take it as a general thought that all agree on.  The people that disagree remember where it started and assume everyone is taking that political slant. When an opinion trend is started by people with loaded agendas, it becomes hard to separate the opinion from the agenda.

Also, while the origin of the concept of a Mary Sue does date back a little ways, you don't see it used as much as you have since Ep7.  Now it's leveled against nearly every female lead in basically anything.  It was leveled heavily against Wonder Woman even by the same crowd.  You see, the folks that originally leveled that argument against Rey have seen it as a dog whistle of an attack they can use against every female to make it seem like they have a legitimate opinion when really they are just trying to cover up their own biased opinions.

This is why talks about Mary Sue characters get so heated so fast.  The term Mary Sue is very quickly becoming a derogatory term with sexist implications because of the people using the term.  Like so many other derogatory 'ist' (racist, sexist, etc) terms used by 'ists', the terms often had neutral, descriptive, or even positive implications before they were co-opted by people that used the terms out of hate.  Mary Sue was once a valid critique of characters in various media.  Once upon a time it could be used by critics or in general conversation without judgement.  However it's recent usage by a hostile group of people has turned it into a term that shuts down conversations more often than it facilitates them. 

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2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:


Luke's real failure isn't the loss of his hand.  That's missing the point. Rey messes up just as hard with Ben as Luke does with Vader. Both of them were running off half-cocked on a fool's errand.

 

 

Except Luke wasnt really teaching her so that is more Lukes failure. 

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3 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Luke had exactly 30 seconds of training before he's deflecting blaster bolts.  He has bush piloting experience and has shot some defenseless animals, yet with no actual training takes on the Empire, blows TIEs out of the air and successfully blows up the Death Star.  With no training, he uses a force move ability to pull his lightsaber to him in order to escape the wampa on Hoth.  That's textbook wish fulfillment BS.

Anakin has no training, has never raced before, but wins the podrace despite the pod being assembled by children and having a couple malfunctions.  He, younger than Luke, and with less piloting experience, flies a starfighter into space, engages in combat and blows up a droid command ship saving the day.  That's worse than Luke.  And while phantom menace was lambasted, not once was anyone throwing the Mary Sue, Marty/Gary/Larry Stu card around.  The movie was bad, not the portrayal of just the one character.

In both cases, the concept of a male hero that can do amazing things without any training, without any valid reason, without any explanation as a form of wish fulfillment was just universally accepted (as it almost always is).  Rey's skills and abilities are explained just as well as Luke's.  Rey's participation in the movies actually makes way more sense than Luke's.

While Rey may come off as a little more Mary Sue than Luke, she's definitely less so than young Anakin.

Are there issues with Ep7 and Ep8? Ayup.  Is Rey being a Mary Sue one of them?  Sure, if you are also willing to level that critique against the OT and the PT about Luke and Anakin.  To say that any one of these is a wish fulfillment character while arguing that the others are not is just straight up ridiculous.

When the majority of mary sue arguments early on were coming from gamergate and incel folk, it's not hard to spot a trend.  These folks leveled all sorts of complaints against Rey that came off as very sexist, and only after the term Mary Sue was leveled against her did they adopt it en mass as if it had always been their argument.  Only after these folks trotted that story out hard did anyone else really start to throw the Mary Sue label at Rey.  The talking head propaganda of the initial sexist take on the subject fed into common culture and stoked the fires.  The general public hears it enough that it becomes 'fact' for them, and they take it as a general thought that all agree on.  The people that disagree remember where it started and assume everyone is taking that political slant. When an opinion trend is started by people with loaded agendas, it becomes hard to separate the opinion from the agenda.

Also, while the origin of the concept of a Mary Sue does date back a little ways, you don't see it used as much as you have since Ep7.  Now it's leveled against nearly every female lead in basically anything.  It was leveled heavily against Wonder Woman even by the same crowd.  You see, the folks that originally leveled that argument against Rey have seen it as a dog whistle of an attack they can use against every female to make it seem like they have a legitimate opinion when really they are just trying to cover up their own biased opinions.

This is why talks about Mary Sue characters get so heated so fast.  The term Mary Sue is very quickly becoming a derogatory term with sexist implications because of the people using the term.  Like so many other derogatory 'ist' (racist, sexist, etc) terms used by 'ists', the terms often had neutral, descriptive, or even positive implications before they were co-opted by people that used the terms out of hate.  Mary Sue was once a valid critique of characters in various media.  Once upon a time it could be used by critics or in general conversation without judgement.  However it's recent usage by a hostile group of people has turned it into a term that shuts down conversations more often than it facilitates them. 

Anakin never raced before? No Anakin raced several times. Anakin never won a race. 

Luke was with yoda for at least several weeks. As the Falcon did a sublight tun from Hoth to Bespin. 

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As someone who is a Republican, I do not see Rey as a “Mary Sue” or as a “SWJ” poster child who’s totally perfect at everything she does and never fails. Does she have her flaws? Absolutely. Is she overpowered? Nope. All of her abilities are pretty well explained. And she does fail more than once. She’s no Mary Sue. 

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27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

All of her abilities are pretty well explained.

Except, you know, being a really good pilot despite never having flown a ship and outdueling Kylo Ren despite never having trained with a lightsaber.

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Just now, Yaccarus said:

Except, you know, being a really good pilot despite never having flown a ship and outdueling Kylo Ren despite never having trained with a lightsaber.

Even that is explained. When they’re running for the Quad Jumper, she tells Finn flat out, she’s a pilot. She had trained in a simulator she had scavenged. This is stated in the novelization, and I’m pretty sure that’s what she’s telling Finn when they’re both celebrating their escape from Jakku and talking over each other at the same time in the movies itself. So yes that too is explained. 

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4 hours ago, Khazadune said:

Wow, the argument becomes if you don't like the character you must not like the idea of a strong female lead. Yeah, that's why the same people believe Leia is a Mary Sue? Or Ellen Ripley in Aliens? Or Dany Targaryen in Game of Thrones? No, not everything is gender politics, some of it is just plain old bad storytelling. 

Thats not the argument, the term Mary Sue is political now, and like everything else in American politics designed to divide. 

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49 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As someone who is a Republican, I do not see Rey as a “Mary Sue” or as a “SWJ” poster child who’s totally perfect at everything she does and never fails. Does she have her flaws? Absolutely. Is she overpowered? Nope. All of her abilities are pretty well explained. And she does fail more than once. She’s no Mary Sue. 

Its not about as a Republican think (Not all Republicans [Democrat] agrees with everything every other Republican [Democrat] thinks either) or what you think it's about what the dozens of career youtubers use to politics to generate clicks, and negativity in general for the same purpose. You usually see these guys personal attacking Kathleen Kennedy as if she personally brought about the downfall of star wars.

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2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Its not about as a Republican think (Not all Republicans [Democrat] agrees with everything every other Republican [Democrat] thinks either) or what you think it's about what the dozens of career youtubers use to politics to generate clicks, and negativity in general for the same purpose. You usually see these guys personal attacking Kathleen Kennedy as if she personally brought about the downfall of star wars.

True, though I’ve seen it go on by both sides. Look at how badly the Left ripped on Alita Battle Angel

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23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Even that is explained. When they’re running for the Quad Jumper, she tells Finn flat out, she’s a pilot. She had trained in a simulator she had scavenged. This is stated in the novelization, and I’m pretty sure that’s what she’s telling Finn when they’re both celebrating their escape from Jakku and talking over each other at the same time in the movies itself. So yes that too is explained. 

“How did you do that?” “I don’t know!” She was just as amazed as Finn after they defeated the TIEs.

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3 minutes ago, Yaccarus said:

“How did you do that?” “I don’t know!” She was just as amazed as Finn after they defeated the TIEs.

You know she's just throwing her force dice into her piloting check.

Edited by Eoen

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3 minutes ago, Yaccarus said:

“How did you do that?” “I don’t know!” She was just as amazed as Finn after they defeated the TIEs.

Yes, but there’s more said than just that; most of which I can’t fully understand because they both talk over one another and it all blends together into jibberish.

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

Then Luke's failure in Empire isn't his,  either.

Yoda told him not to go. Luke pretty much rejected Rey from the moment they met. Totally different. One was actively training and told him he wasnt ready. The other basically actively rejected her.

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