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Rise of the Separtist's release date?

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The books out so it wither sooner or later. I like the spirit of the book but feel like I ate a diet clone wars salad.

Also the thread is on its 39th page that's a good run.

Edited by Eoen

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15 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I watched a few youtube videos last night on what exactly a mary sue is. It seems to me a character is a Mary Sue if conservative males don't like a female social justice warriors. But really what is a Jedi if not a warrior for social justice? Rey also isn't a flawless character.  Rey gets roughed up by thugs at Nema outpost, gets chased by tie fighters, accidental releases the Rathtars, gets totally freaked out by the force, gets captured and ends up needing to be rescued.  Luke doesn't seem to impressed by her either, while Finn on the other hand develops a school boy crush on her. 

 

 

A Mary sue is a character that never fails in any meaningful way. I have yet to see Rey fail in any meaningful way. She beats Kylo Ren with no lightsaber training at all. She beats Snokes Guards with no real lightsaber training at all. She is able to use Influence on a stormtrooper with no real training at all. We dont really ever see her fail at all. And that makes for a boring character. She isnt really roughed up at Nema Outpost. She outflies fighter pilots in a ship she supposedly has never flown. accidentally releasing Rathtars seemed to more benefit her than cause her trouble. So yeah she is pretty Mary Sueish. as none of the so called failures were failures.

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16 minutes ago, Eoen said:

The books out so it wither sooner or later. I like the spirit of the book but feel like I ate a diet clone wars salad.

Also the thread is on its 39th page that's a good run.

Indeed it has been.

And i like the book, but I do think it will work better when in tandem with Collapse of the Republic. They are two halves of the whole, after all, so now that the bases have been set, I'm excited to see what the next book holds!

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2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

A Mary sue is a character that never fails in any meaningful way. I have yet to see Rey fail in any meaningful way. She beats Kylo Ren with no lightsaber training at all. She beats Snokes Guards with no real lightsaber training at all. She is able to use Influence on a stormtrooper with no real training at all. We dont really ever see her fail at all. And that makes for a boring character. She isnt really roughed up at Nema Outpost. She outflies fighter pilots in a ship she supposedly has never flown. accidentally releasing Rathtars seemed to more benefit her than cause her trouble. So yeah she is pretty Mary Sueish. as none of the so called failures were failures.

By these yardsticks, so’s Luke.

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8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

A Mary sue is a character that never fails in any meaningful way. I have yet to see Rey fail in any meaningful way. She beats Kylo Ren with no lightsaber training at all. She beats Snokes Guards with no real lightsaber training at all. She is able to use Influence on a stormtrooper with no real training at all. We dont really ever see her fail at all. And that makes for a boring character. She isnt really roughed up at Nema Outpost. She outflies fighter pilots in a ship she supposedly has never flown. accidentally releasing Rathtars seemed to more benefit her than cause her trouble. So yeah she is pretty Mary Sueish. as none of the so called failures were failures.

Sounds like any character with plot armor.  She is already a staff fighter before we meet her, she grew up in a rough environment, she had a weapon while the thugs where just trying to grab her. Many star wars characters show extraordinary piloting skills, we never saw Luke or Han training on screen, but they take out several tie fighters. Kylo was shot by Chewbacca's bow-caster, had a gut wound, and had just fought a fight with Finn.

Edited by Eoen

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48 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I watched a few youtube videos last night on what exactly a mary sue is. It seems to me a character is a Mary Sue if conservative males don't like a female social justice warriors. But really what is a Jedi if not a warrior for social justice? Rey also isn't a flawless character.  Rey gets roughed up by thugs at Nema outpost, gets chased by tie fighters, accidental releases the Rathtars, gets totally freaked out by the force, gets captured and ends up needing to be rescued.  Luke doesn't seem to impressed by her either, while Finn on the other hand develops a school boy crush on her. 

 

 

Wow, the argument becomes if you don't like the character you must not like the idea of a strong female lead. Yeah, that's why the same people believe Leia is a Mary Sue? Or Ellen Ripley in Aliens? Or Dany Targaryen in Game of Thrones? No, not everything is gender politics, some of it is just plain old bad storytelling. 

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23 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Sounds like any character with plot armor.  She is already a staff fighter before we meet her, she grew up in a rough environment, she had a weapon while the thugs where just trying to grab her. Many star wars characters show extraordinary piloting skills, we never saw Luke or Han training on screen, but they take out several tie fighters. Kylo was shot by Chewbacca's bow-caster, had a gut wound, and had just fought a fight with Finn.

That's why she shows up to train with Luke and handily defeats the only Jedi Master in the galaxy in her first ever duel with no training? 

 

Yeah, when you look up Mary Sue they put her face in the book. 

 

Alternatively, Jyn Erso is an amazing female lead with a great story arc and a history that promotes the things she's able to do and show her limitations in others. 

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26 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

By these yardsticks, so’s Luke.

And Luke (as well as Anakin) gets a pass because he's a he, whether that bias be intentional or not.

If Rey were male, we wouldn't be hearing nearly as much bellyaching, simply due to decades of media traditions of the white male lead being the hero and thus able to do incredible things simply because they're the hero.  It's why Brie Larsen gets so much crap for her portrayal of Carol Danvers in Captain Marvel, when if it'd been a male protagonist nobody would have batted an eye at the character's extreme level of power and cocky attitude.

For all the grousing about the sequels (and in their time, the prequels), the original films fall about just as fast (if not faster in several cases) under the same level of scrutiny, and frankly the main reason the original films get a pass is nostalgia.

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1 minute ago, Khazadune said:

That's why she shows up to train with Luke and handily defeats the only Jedi Master in the galaxy in her first ever duel with no training? 

 

Yeah, when you look up Mary Sue they put her face in the book. 

 

Alternatively, Jyn Erso is an amazing female lead with a great story arc and a history that promotes the things she's able to do and show her limitations in others. 

exactly. And Luke got his *** handed to him by vader in Empire. He LOST a hand. That is real failure.

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1 minute ago, Khazadune said:

That's why she shows up to train with Luke and handily defeats the only Jedi Master in the galaxy in her first ever duel with no training?

Did it cross your mind that perhaps Luke wasn't fighting to win?  If you pay attention to and watch the film, Luke is in the midst of severe PTSD-fueled depression, one he doesn't get out of until near the very end after a final chat with Yoda's Force ghost.

Besides, Jedi Master doesn't always equate with awesome/unbeatable warrior.  Coleman Trebor was a Jedi Master, and got taken out like an absolute punk by Jango Fett.  Yet by the logic of your statement, Jango Fett is a Gary Stu for killing a Jedi Master with a couple of quick blaster bolts.

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1 minute ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And Luke (as well as Anakin) gets a pass because he's a he, whether that bias be intentional or not.

If Rey were male, we wouldn't be hearing nearly as much bellyaching, simply due to decades of media traditions of the white male lead being the hero and thus able to do incredible things simply because they're the hero.  It's why Brie Larsen gets so much crap for her portrayal of Carol Danvers in Captain Marvel, when if it'd been a male protagonist nobody would have batted an eye at the character's extreme level of power and cocky attitude.

For all the grousing about the sequels (and in their time, the prequels), the original films fall about just as fast (if not faster in several cases) under the same level of scrutiny, and frankly the main reason the original films get a pass is nostalgia.

No. That is dismissing bad writing just because she is female and ignoring valid complaints.  There are plenty of awesome female leads who have better stories. Better story arcs. That are very popular. It isnt because she is female. It is because who writing is ****. We are told she is a great role model with out actually doing any of the things that make a good role model.

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3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

And Luke (as well as Anakin) gets a pass because he's a he, whether that bias be intentional or not.

If Rey were male, we wouldn't be hearing nearly as much bellyaching, simply due to decades of media traditions of the white male lead being the hero and thus able to do incredible things simply because they're the hero.  It's why Brie Larsen gets so much crap for her portrayal of Carol Danvers in Captain Marvel, when if it'd been a male protagonist nobody would have batted an eye at the character's extreme level of power and cocky attitude.

For all the grousing about the sequels (and in their time, the prequels), the original films fall about just as fast (if not faster in several cases) under the same level of scrutiny, and frankly the main reason the original films get a pass is nostalgia.

Nope. Luke and Anakin are repeatedly shown to be training and honing skills. When they tried to have Anakin do the same thing as a child they got raked over the coals, and the phantom menace was lambasted. Don't let time cloud your memory. 

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2 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

That's why she shows up to train with Luke and handily defeats the only Jedi Master in the galaxy in her first ever duel with no training? 

 

Yeah, when you look up Mary Sue they put her face in the book. 

 

Alternatively, Jyn Erso is an amazing female lead with a great story arc and a history that promotes the things she's able to do and show her limitations in others. 

Luke is an old man who had cut himself off from the Force, she has the Force, while he doesn't, she already an established staff fighter, he quit when she pulled out a lightsaber which is the natural thing to do when you are carrying a stick. Jyn Erso is a 110 pound woman who easily beats up stormtroopers with sticks.

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1 minute ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Did it cross your mind that perhaps Luke wasn't fighting to win?  If you pay attention to and watch the film, Luke is in the midst of severe PTSD-fueled depression, one he doesn't get out of until near the very end after a final chat with Yoda's Force ghost.

Besides, Jedi Master doesn't always equate with awesome/unbeatable warrior.  Coleman Trebor was a Jedi Master, and got taken out like an absolute punk by Jango Fett.  Yet by the logic of your statement, Jango Fett is a Gary Stu for killing a Jedi Master with a couple of quick blaster bolts.

An established bounty hunter known for his incredible prowess who became the loving embodiment of the genetic map for an entire army... that guy you think doesn't have enough established credentials? 

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1 minute ago, Eoen said:

Luke is an old man who had cut himself off from the Force, she has the Force, while he doesn't, she already an established staff fighter, he quit when she pulled out a lightsaber which is the natural thing to do when you are carrying a stick. Jyn Erso is a 110 pound woman who easily beats up stormtroopers with sticks.

Jyn trained her entire life from childhood to be a fighter by a guerrila force known for their ruthless ways... yeah, whose writing off female leads? 

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1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

We literally see her training in Last Jedi.  WTF is this revisionist nonsense.

Yeah, she gets tickled and has a force vision. Guess that makes you the strongest person in history. 

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1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

We literally see her training in Last Jedi.  WTF is this revisionist nonsense.

The problem with the last Jedi is the time line in to short for the movie to work on any level. Not enough time to train, not enough stress in the capital ship chase, because the first order are dumb asses and didn't just send out more fighters to finish them off. Not enough time to go to Canto Bright and back.

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3 minutes ago, Khazadune said:

Jyn trained her entire life from childhood to be a fighter by a guerrila force known for their ruthless ways... yeah, whose writing off female leads? 

No Jyn trained from the age of 7 to about 15 then ran away before getting caught by the imperials. Life on Jaako doesn't seem like day at the beach.

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1 hour ago, Eoen said:

I watched a few youtube videos last night on what exactly a mary sue is. It seems to me a character is a Mary Sue if conservative males don't like a female social justice warriors. But really what is a Jedi if not a warrior for social justice? Rey also isn't a flawless character.  Rey gets roughed up by thugs at Nema outpost, gets chased by tie fighters, accidental releases the Rathtars, gets totally freaked out by the force, gets captured and ends up needing to be rescued.  Luke doesn't seem to impressed by her either, while Finn on the other hand develops a school boy crush on her. 

 

 

That you came to that conclusion of what a Mary Sue is says more about the political leanings of your sources than anything else. There are far more neutral descriptions of what a Mary Sue is that predate the social justice wars, and Rey scores very highly on any of those score cards.

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3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

That you came to that conclusion of what a Mary Sue is says more about the political leanings of your sources than anything else. There are far more neutral descriptions of what a Mary Sue is that predate the social justice wars, and Rey scores very highly on any of those score cards.

That may be true but I've never heard anything about Mary Sue (maybe some brief mention of Crusher in the 90's) until the alt right started posting click bait articles about the evils of Disney. Or any discussion recently about Mary Sue that didn't come off as political in motivation.

Edited by Eoen

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10 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Jyn Erso is a 110 pound woman who easily beats up stormtroopers with sticks.

Grossly overpowered sticks. Anyone with those Jyn's sticks and skills could have done the same.

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