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Rise of the Separtist's release date?

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3 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

And by that logic, no one would ever purchase ranks in non-career skills, even if they fit your concept. After all, they cost 5 XP more per rank...

... no? Dude, I am saying "discourage" not "forbid". Please do not put words in my mouth that I never say.

 

Discouraging does not mean the system forbids the player for doing it, it just makes it harder.

 

Everyone seems to completely misunderstand what "discouraging" means.

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2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not necessarily. It depends upon what direction the player wanted to take the character and what specific talents each spec had. In fact, I'd hazard to say that such a player would eventually buy both specs, if not at the same time, then one after another, upon getting enough XP. That's what I would do. In fact, I've already done  both. My Cathar I took Steel Hand Adept as a second spec at character creation because he's a hand-to-hand fighter. For my albino Wookiee Sentinel, I took Armorer as a second spec once I earned some XP in order to be better at crafting a lightsaber and other weapons.

And, no, a crafter doesn't "have to" take both Armorer and Artisan, but there is no reason why he wouldn't. It would be to his advantage to do so, in order to get all of the various talents that each provides. For example, an Artisan might want to take Armorer in order to gain access to Lightsaber as a career skill, as well as the talents Gearhead, Tinkerer, and Reinforce Item, as well as additional ranks in Inventor, Mental Tools, and Imbue Item, on top of the Armorer's  Armor Master tree and the spec's combat talents. Likewise, an Armorer might want to take Artisan to gain access to Intuitive Improvements, Solid Repairs, Fine Tuning, Master Artisan, Mental Fortress, Natural Tinkerer, and Technical Aptitude, as well as Comprehend Technology at a cheaper XP cost

 

 

Also, @KRKappel once ran a Convention one-shot with the players playing members of the Jedi Council, each character having in excess of 2000 XP. There is no limit to the amount of XP a character can earn, nor how many specs or talents he or she can have. That is also why taking Out of Career specs is not discouraged, but is expected

 

I did qualify my question wiht "two equally reasonable options". And you are dodging the question; If a player has to pick between one of the two specs, both of which works fine for their character, which one would they pick?
 

If the answer is not "the cheapest one", then I don't know what you are smoking, but I would like some.

 

Referring to the other post I just made, you seem to misunderstand what I mean by the word "discouraging". I do not mean forbid, I mean the system makes it harder to do. You cannot possibly argue that making something more expensive makes it easier to take, right?

 

That's all I say; the system, by its very design, makes it harder to pick up a non-career tree, than it does a career tree.

 

Whether or not players actually do it anyway is irrelevant. Players do all kinds of ****, whether or not the system makes it harder for them. If they want both, they'll take both, but the non-career spec is objectively harder to pick up than the career spec.

 

Also I think you are shooting yourself in the foot there with the Jedi Council game example, as I'm pretty sure that was intentionally designed at ludicrusly high experience levels specifically to model the absurdly strong Council Members. And I never said there was a limit to how much experience a character could take, just that most games won't run that long. If the game does run that long, then yes, an out-of-career spec is necesssary (unless you chunk everything into skills and force-powers I guess), but that still doesn't change the objective fact that picking up a non-career spec is harder than picking up a career spec.

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23 minutes ago, damnkid3 said:

The scavenger is on the universal talent tree, instead of the clone wars sheet.  I had the same issue.

Do you have the link to that one? I only had the link to this PDF. 

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3 hours ago, TheJack said:

Yeah, agree, this would make the most sense. IMO it's also a rather inelegant method... What I'm hoping for is that they release a Master spec later on that includes a saber style talent. Then folks can take that to get the minimum baseline ability in that style, and then expand outwards to out-of-career specs if they wish to become better at their chosen style

Or a talent that makes one saber style in career

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21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Or a talent that makes one saber style in career

It would have to be a 5 point Talent to make that worthwhile. 

After all, if you don't want to pay +10 XP to buy an out of career spec in the first place, why would you pay for a Talent to let you avoid that +10?

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Posted (edited)

@TheJack

I apologize if I misunderstood. It seemed like you were upset about spending 10 XP.

Jay Little himself suggested 5 XP per hour of play, so a 4 hour session would net 20 XP. If your playing weekly, that 10 XP isn't much.

As for "two equal choices, but one is cheaper", that speaks to a min-max attitude. Spec choices should be about what fits the character concept.

Also, no two spec trees are identical, so how can you say that they're equal?

BTW: Did you read my post about how the Jedi career is really to allow people who don't own Force & Destiny to play Jedi?

If you have F&D, you don't need it at all.

And I doubt that Collapse of the Republic will do more than reprint the two Jedi Specs (as any info on them was conspicuously absent from the article).

Edited by salamar_dree

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43 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@TheJack

I apologize if I misunderstood. It seemed like you were upset about spending 10 XP.

Jay Little himself suggested 5 XP per hour of play, so a 4 hour session would net 20 XP. If your playing weekly, that 10 XP isn't much.

As for "two equal choices, but one is cheaper", that speaks to a min-max attitude. Spec choices should be about what fits the character concept.

Also, no two spec trees are identical, so how can you say that they're equal?

BTW: Did you read my post about how the Jedi career is really to allow people who don't own Force & Destiny to play Jedi?

If you have F&D, you don't need it at all.

And I doubt that Collapse of the Republic will do more than reprint the two Jedi Specs (as any info on them was conspicuously absent from the article).

Or what I think is likely is there is a Jedi master spec that rounds out the career to be a full 3 spec career. Plus maybe a couple Signature abilities

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Or what I think is likely is there is a Jedi master spec that rounds out the career to be a full 3 spec career. Plus maybe a couple Signature abilities

With a fr 3 requirement most likely.

Edited by AnomalousAuthor

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While I'd agree to some extent that the system discourages out of career specs with the extra costs, I'd say it also encourages it considering the very powerful combos available.

Does the Jedi career in any way need a discount for any of the lightsaber specs to be an awesome combo with the knight and/or padawan specs? 

No. No it does not. Stop whining and consider those 10xp your tax for being awesome. 

But hey, for those who are opposed to all taxation, maybe there should be a universal spec that lets you change the characteristic used by lightsaber?

Oh right, there already is.

Complaining about this is like having your cake and eating it, and then complaining that the cake didn't double in size.

FaD specs are already somewhat iffy to make focused builds from without going cross-class. Start as a starfighter ace and try to find anything else useful for a pilot in the warrior career.

No, the Jedi and Outcast specs were already wrapped in bows and ribbons and needs no further boosts, mechanically or thematically.

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9 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

@TheJack

I apologize if I misunderstood. It seemed like you were upset about spending 10 XP.

Jay Little himself suggested 5 XP per hour of play, so a 4 hour session would net 20 XP. If your playing weekly, that 10 XP isn't much.

As for "two equal choices, but one is cheaper", that speaks to a min-max attitude. Spec choices should be about what fits the character concept.

Also, no two spec trees are identical, so how can you say that they're equal?

BTW: Did you read my post about how the Jedi career is really to allow people who don't own Force & Destiny to play Jedi?

If you have F&D, you don't need it at all.

And I doubt that Collapse of the Republic will do more than reprint the two Jedi Specs (as any info on them was conspicuously absent from the article).

 

Nah, I'm not upset about spending 10 exp. I'm just shaking my head that it took this long to explain what it costing 10 experience more is not an encouragement, but a discouragement. I'm not going to bother arguing any further though, because if it hasn't worked by now, there's no point to continuing.

And yes, spec choice should always fit with a character concept, but I was using that as an example to prove a mechanical point. No need to read into the example more than was intended. Also, min-maxing and making a good character are not mutually exclusive, and IMO they fit hand-in-hand. If anything, everyone optimizes for something... Good roleplayers just optimize towards a good character, which is more than just being able to kill stuff deader. Though, that doesn't mean killing stuff deader can't be involved in a good character either... AFter all, wouldn't it be weird if you had a bounty hunter character who's supposed to be really dangerous, but who actually can't kill stuff because he's not very good at it?

As for "equal", I meant "equal for the character concept". It doesn't really matter what the trees are, it was just an example to prove a point. Maybe something like a character considering whether to branch into medicine or mechanics, and both being good options for him, so he has to chose. Again, the specifics are irrelevant

 

And yes, I did read your post about the jedi career, and I strongly disagree. I didn't want to mix in even more into the argument though.
If you really want to know, my opinion is that the Jedi career is there to let people make a baseline Jedi quickly and easily. It also lets people who don't own FaD to play a force sensitive, but that's not the main purpose, otherwise they could've just reprinted a FaD class or two. 

And you don't *need* the Jedi career if you have FaD, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't want it; it is better for some character concepts ("baseline Jedi" for one) than the FaD careers. It's the same way you don't *need* an Edge of the Empire career to play a smuggler, but you may want to anyway because it's designed to help you do that.

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@TheJack

Point taken.

I apologize for coming across as argumentative. You were just expressing your feelings on the subject, and your desire for a better mechanical fit in the rules for saber styles.

I think we can both agree that there isn't a wrong way to build your character as long as you're having fun!

Cheers!

 

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Off-topic a bit...

With regards to the LS Form specs, one avenue to consider (albeit one that needs a fair bit of work) would be to take a look at DarthGM's old Jedi career fan supplement.  Specifically, the three Style specs that he created, based upon the now-Legends concept of "Three Styles" that Luke's New Jedi Order implemented, those being Fast Style (Ataru, Soresu, Shien), Medium Style (Shii-Cho and Niman), and Strong Style (Djem So, Makashi, and Shii-Cho).

Each of those three were universal specs and offered up talents related to lightsaber combat.  Granted, their information is way out of date since they were last updated well before Force and Destiny was released, but if the GM is willing to do some work, it's possible they could be reworked into something usable with the Jedi career, especially as Force Outcast lays the ground work for a talent that lets the player select what characteristic to use when making Lightsaber checks.  They wouldn't have many (if any) of the higher-end talents that the individual Form specs offer, but they would reflect the "mix and match" aspects that many Jedi during the fall of the Republic era displayed in their bladework.

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50 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Has anyone spoiled the species from this book yet? Specifically the Geonosians and Umbarans? IIRC, somebody did spoil the CLones and we've seen the Kaminoans before.

Yup. I posted a imgur link that I found via Google that had them.

https://i.imgur.com/bLUZu2S_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/fzvZWxY_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

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23 hours ago, TheJack said:

... no? Dude, I am saying "discourage" not "forbid". Please do not put words in my mouth that I never say.

 

Discouraging does not mean the system forbids the player for doing it, it just makes it harder.

 

Everyone seems to completely misunderstand what "discouraging" means.

 

23 hours ago, TheJack said:

 

I did qualify my question wiht "two equally reasonable options". And you are dodging the question; If a player has to pick between one of the two specs, both of which works fine for their character, which one would they pick?
 

If the answer is not "the cheapest one", then I don't know what you are smoking, but I would like some.

 

Referring to the other post I just made, you seem to misunderstand what I mean by the word "discouraging". I do not mean forbid, I mean the system makes it harder to do. You cannot possibly argue that making something more expensive makes it easier to take, right?

 

That's all I say; the system, by its very design, makes it harder to pick up a non-career tree, than it does a career tree.

 

Whether or not players actually do it anyway is irrelevant. Players do all kinds of ****, whether or not the system makes it harder for them. If they want both, they'll take both, but the non-career spec is objectively harder to pick up than the career spec.

 

Also I think you are shooting yourself in the foot there with the Jedi Council game example, as I'm pretty sure that was intentionally designed at ludicrusly high experience levels specifically to model the absurdly strong Council Members. And I never said there was a limit to how much experience a character could take, just that most games won't run that long. If the game does run that long, then yes, an out-of-career spec is necesssary (unless you chunk everything into skills and force-powers I guess), but that still doesn't change the objective fact that picking up a non-career spec is harder than picking up a career spec.

Nobody is misunderstanding you. We all simply disagree with you. It is no more difficult to pick up an out of career spec than an in career one. A few extra XP is a non issue. Players don’t typically choose a spec based upon how much XP it’s going to cost. They pick a spec because it fits their characters thematically, and provides them with the talents they want for that character. XP cost isn’t a factor. 

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3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A few extra XP is a non issue.  XP cost isn’t a factor. 

This is objectively and provably untrue.  There are people in this very thread who clearly believe that it is an issue, otherwise they wouldn't be wishing that the Jedi career allowed them to take out-of-career specs as in-career.  I also can't count the number of people I've seen wishing for more universal specs.  Since the only difference between a universal spec and an out-of-career spec is the cost, obviously the cost is a factor for them as well.

Now to be clear, I don't actually think 10XP is a big deal either.  But that doesn't invalidate the opinion of everyone who does, no matter how much bold type you use.  

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Going to throw my 10 creds into the pot here.

To me it is disappointing the Jedi career doesn't provide a way to change your lightsaber style. I think this design choice was to increase the inherent difficulty of playing a force user in that time and to encourage people to spend their XP on ranks of Lightsaber to compensate for not having their main characteristic being used for Lightsaber.

I am just speculating here mind you, but I see this a lot in my game. A jedi character almost never purchases ranks into saber at first. As soon as they can they start making their way to whatever talent changes their saber skill.

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3 hours ago, Ebak said:

Going to throw my 10 creds into the pot here.

To me it is disappointing the Jedi career doesn't provide a way to change your lightsaber style. I think this design choice was to increase the inherent difficulty of playing a force user in that time and to encourage people to spend their XP on ranks of Lightsaber to compensate for not having their main characteristic being used for Lightsaber.

I am just speculating here mind you, but I see this a lot in my game. A jedi character almost never purchases ranks into saber at first. As soon as they can they start making their way to whatever talent changes their saber skill.

Well, odds are we're going to see at least one additional Jedi specialization in Collapse of the Republic.  So it's possible that there'll be a new Jedi spec that offers the chance to swap what characteristic is used for the Lightsaber skill.

Then again, having a 3 in Brawn doesn't hurt, and I've found it useful for not just Shii-Cho Knight but also Shien Expert (who gets Falling Avalanche for extra damage based on Brawn) and even Ataru Striker (since extra wounds are good for a glass cannon spec) or Niman Disciple, since it doesn't hurt to have a fall-back characteristic in case you're suffering from a crit that increases the difficulty of checks made using your Form's preferred alternate characteristic.  In addition to having an extra point of soak against non-saber attacks, which again never hurts.

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Maybe it's been answered already, but now that we have new careers coming... does that mean there are new splatbooks in the works? To finish out the 6 specs and signature abilities like the 6 base careers per core rulebook got?

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Just now, Randy G said:

Maybe it's been answered already, but now that we have new careers coming... does that mean there are new splatbooks in the works? To finish out the 6 specs and signature abilities like the 6 base careers per core rulebook got?

Pure speculation, but I would definitely assume so. A Jedi splatbook would be pretty sweet. 

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1 minute ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

Pure speculation, but I would definitely assume so. A Jedi splatbook would be pretty sweet. 

Let's see..... should I just write the check now for a preorder?

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