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Lord Vorun'Thul

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What were we up to in the other thread?

stuns

banes in general make it hard for him to ready upgrades or stick the inspiration token to get rid of his transformation stun.

from experience:  threat three ranged+tempered steel is mean.  You can push two wounds over protected.  You just need to be able to fire twice or have multiple sources of fire.  I’ve just missed killing him twice because of terrible dice (3 rolls with 0-1 hits, twice in a row).

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Here, I'll help move this along. @Viktus106 said:

"Maegan needs three surges to cause a wound and has to be in range. If she is in range, then that means she is also about to be charged by him and made into a nice ornament to mount above his fire place in Castle Ravenloft

Kari can splash him but she has to be in melee combat with someone and then has to get a minimum of two surges to deal one wound. Dunno about you but Kari doesn't last more than two rounds in melee, especially if she is not damaging the unit she is attacking. Also, its laughable that neither Kari or Hawthorne can deal more than a singe wound to Lord OP at a time, WITH Fortuna's dice. 

Ravos never makes it to Lord OP. Considering that Ravos has a mandatory move and REALLY wants to kill Lord OP, a 3 x 2 Reanimate Archer unit with Tempered Steel makes sure that Ravos doesn't make it there in one piece and when he does, he gets banged. Hard. 

Anyone that has shield of Margath won't be near or engaged with Lord OP. His "I don't need movement templates because I have the Deep Strike special rule" makes engaging him on your terms very difficult. Even then, he can just teleport away from you instead of dialing in a melee and suffering shield damage. OR he just does twelve damage and you ain't around to activate shield of margath no more and because you died, he gets to refresh Fortuna's Dice. 

Corruption Rune can work but I have yet to see it damage him. The banes are nice but he generally has a bunch of inspiration that its wasted. Or he is in combat with you and Thirst is enabling him to remove the bane anyway. 

Spirit sword is great, no doubt but again, just like shield, whomever has this will likely never make it into combat with him and if they do, they can at best remove a single hit icon and they STILL take six damage in return. Eventually they won't have enough inspiration to keep it going and they will lose the battle of attrition. 

3 armor and above does make it very difficult for him to trigger Thirst, granted, but as mentioned before, those ain't his targets. His targets are the rest of your army and since I play Uthuk, lol, what is armor 3 ? :):)

Mortal Wounds, yeah, you got me there. They do work. It's a shame that Keth'ra or Ravos never make it into combat with Lord OP though. Even MoI Flesh Rippers didn't manage to roll it and died in two turns. 24 wounds and I managed 1. I felt awesome. 

Keth'ra ability can do the damage on him too, it's just a shame that Lord OP can regenerate that kind of damage and you are essentially helping him clean up your army. 


But you what, it's OK, I have Scuttling Horror. So OP, every turn im shufflin' ! :)

In all seriousness though, its just new OP shiny. He isn't really a problem. Just make sure you get him in arc and deal 14 damage to him in one shot and then reach across the board and accept their surrender"

The opposition now has the floor. What is your response?

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and the rest:

Part 1:
Lord OP dials in an I3 green melee attack and a green shift. 


Now it's a 50 / 50 guessing game. 

1. If you dialed in a melee attack at I4 or I5, he will shift out after his melee attack, regenerate a wound and then leave you stranded and your dial choice redundant.
2. If you dialed in a charge, thinking he is going to shift out, he can melee attack you, regenerate a wound and then shift sideways, remaining engaged and making your dial choice redundant. 

So you have a 50/50 chance of either doing nothing or getting an attack off. Regardless, most infantry is capped out at six damage (unless you spike and get a double hit on a red) meaning you will only do a single wound which he will regenerate next round anyway, making your 50/50 decision lackluster and unsatisfying. 

Of course, you can remedy this a little by taking something like Warsprinter and Aggressive Shrieker, dialing in both a melee and a white skill but as mentioned before, you will only really manage a single wound and that will be healed next round. Meanwhile, you are losing trays.

Then you have the other 50/50 in that you decide to perform a Reform action at say I3 - I5 but Lord OP dials in March and teleport. You spin and he likely gets on your flank anyway. Then you either have the above situation or you reform and he whallops you for nine damage. 

Rinse and repeat. 

Our Lord OP player went from a 14 game losing streak to an 11 game undefeated streak. He hasn't died yet and has one at least two games single handedly. 

Part 2:
Not wanting to de-rail this thread too much but i'll here any maybe we can carry on this discussion in another thread. 

I agree that a new addition to the game is healthy, it requires you to change your list and tactics accordingly to counter him, but let's see what he really brings to the table. 

1. 52 point fortress. So a quarter of your list which, in our experience, is safe and will not die.
2. Minimum of five damage needed to cause a single wound, to which he has four. This means that typically, any 2 or 4 tray unit cannot harm him unless they have upgrades such as tempered steel or another way to generate more damage and get a perfect roll. Unlikely.
3. He can regenerate wounds.
4. He can be brutal 3. 
5. He can hand out stun tokens.
6. He can ready upgrade cards by dealing damage, meaning he can have perma-Fortuna's Dice.
7. He can remove a bane, simply by dealing damage to you. 
8. He can ignore movement templates and simply be "placed within" which means he has unparalleled movement options.
9. He can melee attack you and shift out of combat, meaning that there is a 50% chance that he takes no damage anyway.

You mention Scuttling Horror, which is a massive salt generator on this forum but in reality, all it does is the TINIEST movement left or right OR it shifts you out of terrain which is its main use. The best way to counter that is to ensure your terrain deck is essentially 1 piece of any capacity terrain and make sure the other three cards are 0 capacity. If you do that and there is only one piece of terrain on the board that Spined Threshers can Scuttle into and out of, then it's not really that much of a threat anymore. If you then sit your unit at March 4 distance from that terrain and allow Spined Threshers into it and you are surprised when they scuttle out and charge you at I5, the next turn . . well I don't really know what else to tell you. It was telegraphed like two turns ago. 

Lord OP on the other hand can teleport over terrain, teleport past your front line, teleport to angles to which your templates cannot match and he can do all that at I3, I4, I6 and I7. He can charge you without it being considered a charge so things like File Leader don't work against him. He can dive ANYWHERE at range 2 when he teleport again which means into your deployment uncontested for objective points for Break their Defenses or Conquest, next to Latari Memorial for inspiration, next to the objective token in Defended Pass and he is also exceptionally good at Hunter's Quarry. There is debate about if he can actually teleport into terrain but that's for another time and thread. 

Even in a straight up fight, most of the time he will be on your flank, rolling 1 x White & x 2 Red, dial in that surge and use Fortuna's Dice. So even before rolling dice, he is dealing six damage, anything that comes up on the red is just a Brucey Bonus. Its not uncommon for him to deal twelve damage in an attack, which is the entire back rank of a 3 x 2 or it reduces a 2 x 2 to the point where he is immune from any retaliation damage.

Having said all that, no one mentions it because he is a Waiqar hero, who I personally feel are the worst faction at the moment. Ardus and Maro are both massively over costed for what they bring to the table. Their two themes, Blight and Resurrection, whilst thematically nice, don't really bring enough for them to effect a game unless you REALLY sink points into it. I don't recall a game where I have heard someone say "****, that blight really cost me" or "those blasted things just didn't stay down!!" Instead, I've had Waiqar win without ever using Reanimates or even putting out a blight token, all because of Lord OP. 

For us, its clear as day. A player that couldn't win a single game for months has now become an unstoppable winning machine with no end in sight until we somehow figure out how you are supposed to stop this Vampiric terror. 

All of the above is based on my experience in our small community, which only has around 16 players so I appreciate it's not a massive sample size to draw from. 

Regarding the comparison to the pre-nerf V1 TIE Phantom:

Both have massive native damage.
Both have above normal defense.
Both have/had unparalleled movement, more so then anyone else.
Both require you to tech against them specifically or just lose.
Unlike the TIE Phantom, which there is a chance of it being hurt even by a unmodified HWK shot, Lord OP CANNOT be harmed by the majority of 1 x 1, 2 x 1, 1 x 2 and some 2 x 2 units. 

 

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Maybe you need to deal with Lord V like the townsfolk do with Vampires, mob mentality.

Focus fire that guy and close him down asap so he has no where to teleport to?

I think Viktus is basically trying to say most of the things being mentioned are easy to suggest, but in practice they'll be difficult to actually pull off. Lord V is something you seemingly have to prepare for and once he has you, it is potentially very difficult to overcome that. Even if you are keeping him at bay and having him not kill anything, that is still a lot of points left on the board for the Waiqar player at the end of the game.

I've always felt that ranged attacks are probably one of your best forms of damaging Lord V, and also making sure he has banes on him. Its also expecting when he is going to do his transform, just like when you expect people are going to charge you and you prepare for it. I think he is a hero that you need to seriously know his dial to know what he may be pulling and have a chess rather than checkers mentality.

I've had games where people have kept him stunned and stopping him from transforming, which stops that big damage coming their way, but that is also meaning they're not damaging him also, which is more points into the fact he can be a points fortress.

Again, on the surface... high armor targets/high wound figures are not going to be Lord V's most favorable target and I'd probably just as easily flee an engagement as Lord V that I didn't like.

You really need to catch him in his normal form to really stop him from dictating the engagement in his favour fully, but again... easier said that done.

I just think when it comes to units that are very maneuverable, you need to try and take that away from them somehow.

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53 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

What were we up to in the other thread?

stuns

banes in general make it hard for him to ready upgrades or stick the inspiration token to get rid of his transformation stun.

from experience:  threat three ranged+tempered steel is mean.  You can push two wounds over protected.  You just need to be able to fire twice or have multiple sources of fire.  I’ve just missed killing him twice because of terrible dice (3 rolls with 0-1 hits, twice in a row).

Unless you are Latari, can you provide a consistent stun bane generator?

Uthuk:
Corruption Rune needs to draw the correct card.
Reaver needs to roll a dice.
Scuttling Horror needs to be in combat with him and exhaust but by that point, it's already too late.
Ritual Venom but you have to take wounds to get  the tokens and then you have to choose specifically those tokens and then either fire at him or get him in melee. Lot of caveats there. 

Daqan:
Corruption Rune above
Baron Z but he needs to be in range and roll a surge
Any more?

Waiqar:
Corruption Rune. 
Any thing else?

As for the threat 3 ranged, I wholeheartedly agree. The problem however is that they won't be in range at first and then you are relying on dice AND you need to do it twice in a row. 

So:

Deepwood: Blue Hit + Blue Hit + Surge into Tempered. Nine damage. Two wounds. You will be engaged next turn and he will regenerate unless you get him locked up with something else. 

Reanimate Archers: Same as above really but with less re-rolls. 

Crossbowmen: Best chance if you have him in range 1 - 3 but again, less re-rolls so not consistent. 

Viper Legion isn't out yet so cannot comment. 

So far you have managed one to two wounds and exhausted an upgrade and now in threat range to get charged. Considering your unit is armor 1, Lord OP is going to regenerate and will slow chew through your unit. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Zaaik said:

Maybe you need to deal with Lord V like the townsfolk do with Vampires, mob mentality.

Focus fire that guy and close him down asap so he has no where to teleport to?

I think Viktus is basically trying to say most of the things being mentioned are easy to suggest, but in practice they'll be difficult to actually pull off. Lord V is something you seemingly have to prepare for and once he has you, it is potentially very difficult to overcome that. Even if you are keeping him at bay and having him not kill anything, that is still a lot of points left on the board for the Waiqar player at the end of the game.

I've always felt that ranged attacks are probably one of your best forms of damaging Lord V, and also making sure he has banes on him. Its also expecting when he is going to do his transform, just like when you expect people are going to charge you and you prepare for it. I think he is a hero that you need to seriously know his dial to know what he may be pulling and have a chess rather than checkers mentality.

I've had games where people have kept him stunned and stopping him from transforming, which stops that big damage coming their way, but that is also meaning they're not damaging him also, which is more points into the fact he can be a points fortress.

Again, on the surface... high armor targets/high wound figures are not going to be Lord V's most favorable target and I'd probably just as easily flee an engagement as Lord V that I didn't like.

You really need to catch him in his normal form to really stop him from dictating the engagement in his favour fully, but again... easier said that done.

I just think when it comes to units that are very maneuverable, you need to try and take that away from them somehow.

Let's assess the MSU mentality:

200 points
6 x 2 x 2 Deepwood archers. 

Max damage: 4 (assuming hit + hit)

Minimum damage to wound Lord OP: 5. 

Nothing in the army can hurt him. He is 100% immune to damage. In fact, you don't even need the rest of the Waiqar army, at this point, they are a liability. 

If you give them all tempered steel. . . (brings it to 198 points) now they can wound him, just but they must roll hit + hit and must dial in that surge. Anything else won't wound. 

Now you have the task of making sure you have them all able to fire at him at the same time. Whilst possible if you fortress in the corner (assuming the deployment even allows you to do that) and don't move, you then have the problem that the rest of the Waiqar army moves and wins due to objectives or their archers out damage you and they win on points. 

Or something charges you and creates a blind spot for Lord OP to dive in. After all, he can clear ALOT of space when he needs to and once he is in, you lose. 

Face it, there is no easy counter to him. It's just an elephant in the room that needs addressing whenever you go to an event. 

 

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I play latari as my main faction, so perhaps it is natural to think of the stuns.  Any names though interfere with the rally mechanic needed for the stub he is going to give himself.

you have other units on the board than your 3 threat archers, so does he.  It gets complicated very quickly.  Every unit in the game is most efficiently destroyed by having multiple units attack it.  So how you position and maneuver via-a-vis vorunthull matters a great deal.  There’s also no 50 points of anything that you’d want to kill simply by having one of your own units swing at it.  You really want multiple somethings swinging and shooting at it.  You can’t just assign one unit to vorenthull and hope that will be enough.  He’s going to eat it and do awesome things.

Ive seen nearly every hero in the game do extremely awesome things.  Then I’ve seen them get misplayed and look like a dud.  He’s the latest hotness thst will take time to adjust to.

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