Motti Dual ISDs

[Kendraam 230]

Looking for feedback on this list please - too much on squads? Swap Valen for Dengar? Bid too small but I really don't mind playing my objectives (well, Solar Corona as it'll get picked 99/100) - really want to do Vader but he's just so expensive!

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 395/400  

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Station Assault
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

 

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
-  Admiral Motti  ( 24  points) 
-  Avenger  ( 5  points) 
-  Instructor Goran  ( 7  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
= 183 total ship cost

 

Imperial Star Destroyer Kuat Refit (112 points)
-  Devastator  ( 10  points) 
-  Captain Brunson  ( 5  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points) 
= 148 total ship cost

 

1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points) 
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points) 
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points) 
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points) 
= 64 total squadron cost

[Cleto0 219]

Too much on squads. Motti is more competitive than Vader. XI-7 is better than spirals. APTs are too hard to proc, so I would go with exracks. On the Kuat I would recommend using bt. Pryce is a much better choice over goran. I would also drop devestator and put avenger on the Kuat.  Also, there is no question you need ECMs on all isds. I will be running this list for my regionals 

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Imperial II (120)
• Admiral Motti (24)
• Strategic Adviser (4) or pryce
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 172 Points

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• External Racks (3)
• Avenger (5)
= 134 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 386

Edited October 31, 2018 by Cleto0

[Kendraam 230]

Thanks for the feedback ?

I don't like Pryce, ties you too much into one way of playing and it can backfire badly if you get it wrong.  StratAdv for your list would be better, not much point with 2 activations though!

I can't drop Devastator because reasons...so with that in mind ECM doesn't really help if I have no defense tokens, hence RBD and Brunson.  The squads are to shield Avenger which means either enemy squads chew through multiple scatter/counter aces or attack Devastator which then powers it up.

I could go BTA on the Kuat but it's a bit boring and two gunnery team ISDs can be horrific.  Went with APT since I hope to get more than one shot off but yes, if it was BTA then ExRax is better.

Wanted to try something a little different ?

[Messi22 2]

This is the current list that I use for my dual ISD fleet:

Author: Messi22

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 389/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

 

[ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
-  Moff Jerjerrod  ( 23  points)
-  Flight Controllers  ( 6  points)
-  Expanded Hangar Bay  ( 5  points)
-  Boosted Comms  ( 4  points)
= 148 total ship cost

 

Imperial Star Destroyer Kuat Refit (112 points)
-  Avenger  ( 5  points)
-  Governor Pryce  ( 7  points)
-  Boarding Troopers  ( 3  points)
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points)
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points)
-  External Racks  ( 3  points)
= 139 total ship cost

 

1 Morna Kee ( 27 points)
1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points)
1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)
1 Zertik Strom ( 15 points)
= 102 total squadron cost

 

Before wave 7 I used two ISD 1 with Jerry. As I am going speed 3 with both of them and play very aggressiv I never go navigation command due to Jerry. 90% of the time Pryce does her trick on turn 2 where you can last/first hit given you are 1st player. Otherwise it is turn 3. Pryce for me is my favourite EMP office atm and I actaully have a hard time making a ISD fleet without her. However, as you point out she can backfire and it has taken a lot of pratice for me at least to get her right in my fleets. In my first 10 games with her I tried so many times where I didn't get much or none value. However, it is important to learn your playstyle and then adjust your fleet to that. I think if you like to play more defensivly then Strategic advisor might be a better option.
 

[CommanderDave 429]

@Messi22, you may consider dropping Vader and Soontir for Bossk and Jendon. A few more points, but well worth the upgrade.

[Cleto0 219]

Already has a weak bid, it would be too much

[Cleto0 219]

Anyone have ideas for this build? 

On 10/31/2018 at 9:57 AM, Cleto0 said:

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Imperial II (120)
• Admiral Motti (24)
• Strategic Adviser (4) or pryce
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 172 Points

 ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Boarding Troopers (3)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• External Racks (3)
• Avenger (5)
= 134 Points

Squadrons:
• Ciena Ree (17)
• Valen Rudor (13)
= 30 Points

Total Points: 386

I need help before regionals. I specifically need help with placing pryce on the right turn.

I think 2-3 is right, but what if they are running away from you? What vs other double isds

[PT106 2,316]

2 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

Anyone have ideas for this build? 

I need help before regionals. I specifically need help with placing pryce on the right turn.

I think 2-3 is right, but what if they are running away from you? What vs other double isds

My thoughts on the list. You're running Motti, drop ECM, get RBD, save on points. With 5 activations SA should be better that pryce. Move SA on Kyat and use that precious officer slot on ISD2.

I'm not a fan on BT/Avenger Kuat, but some people like it, so its your choice\call.

Edited November 12, 2018 by PT106

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

On 10/31/2018 at 10:39 AM, Kendraam said:

Looking for feedback on this list please - too much on squads? Swap Valen for Dengar? Bid too small but I really don't mind playing my objectives (well, Solar Corona as it'll get picked 99/100) - really want to do Vader but he's just so expensive!

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 395/400  

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Station Assault
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

 

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
-  Admiral Motti  ( 24  points) 
-  Avenger  ( 5  points) 
-  Instructor Goran  ( 7  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 
-  Spinal Armament  ( 9  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
= 183 total ship cost

 

Imperial Star Destroyer Kuat Refit (112 points)
-  Devastator  ( 10  points) 
-  Captain Brunson  ( 5  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Reinforced Blast Doors  ( 5  points) 
-  Leading Shots  ( 4  points) 
-  Assault Proton Torpedoes  ( 5  points) 
= 148 total ship cost

 

1 Soontir Fel ( 18 points) 
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points) 
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points) 
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points) 
= 64 total squadron cost

"Too much" on squads is relative; what do you want the squad element to accomplish? If you're just looking for something to keep heavy bomber balls off the battleships and hopefully make some of their points back in kills, I would use Howl, Mauler, Valen, and either Ciena or a Jumpmaster, both if you're up for it. Both saves a point, losing the Jump saves 13, etc. Vader vs Motti, both are good but this looks more like Motti to me. You're trying to get into the fight and simply remain shooting, which Motti excels at, versus push into the fight laying out high damage everywhere (Vader).

Regarding ship fit, I see some things I disagree with, but by and large it's fine. I would do XI7 over Spinals; APTs are effectively pierce damage; if the Kuat had ACM I'd think about Spinal just to wear down the target through overwhelming damage, but it's often inefficient and slow. Ditch Goran, he's not buying you 7 points of help against squads. Replacing him with SAd or Pryce would be good. On the Kuat, I strongly disagree with @Cleto0, APTs will proc often enough, especially if you aggressively reroll/add in Ordnance Experts instead of Gunnery Team. I'm not all that hot on Devastator here. Dice are nice, and Motti Devastators tend to be pretty survivable, but it's not awe-inspiring. Similarly I'm not all that happy with Avenger. Her range means she will often be firing first, so the title isn't super helpful. For titles I would do some combo of Relentless, Avenger, and/or titleless. Put Brunson on the flagship (Pryce helps close quarters brawlers like Kuats get their dice on target better IMO), and get ECM on the Kuat. Motti RBD looks like a good combo on Dev, and it is, but you still need to be able to spend those tokens. You also probably don't want to burn all your tokens, so ECM remains helpful. As you noted later, shifting to ExRacks if you do a BTA on the Kuat is a good idea, but otherwise APT will do fine, especially with aggressive rerolls and double arcs.

Final thoughts, I would not worry excessively about bid. Finding something more interesting than Solar Corona won't hurt you, but deployment advantage means not only will you not be out-deployed, but you cannot be counter-deployed (except by Raddus), something dissimilar ISDs are particularly prone to.

3 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

Anyone have ideas for this build? 

I need help before regionals. I specifically need help with placing pryce on the right turn.

I think 2-3 is right, but what if they are running away from you? What vs other double isds

I agree with @PT106, I don't think the edge cases where Pryce will help you will help enough more to justify her over StratAd. If you do take Pryce, put her on BTA to help get off the shot. Pryce for 2 if it looks like a high-speed (net of speed 4 or higher) or 3 if a low speed merge. Much more important for the Pryce turn is going to be making sure you are not counter-deployed. You don't have a lot of drops, and it's relatively easy to force a dissimilar ISD fleet to throw its maneuver plan out the window, which never ends well for the ISDs. It's why I don't like them as a general rule.

More generally, I don't like BTA Kuats, I find them underwhelming, but the DR does help on the way in. I think Ciena and Valen are probably wasted, and can go back into points elsewhere (e.g. Chimaera). Adding Hondo to a Goz, Vet. Capt. to the other, and Brunson on the Kuat if it odes not get Pryce are all changes I would strongly consider. I would also caution you away from lists that feel like they need to bid for first. It's a truism that someone will always bid more than you, but it's a truism for a reason. For both of you, about all I can recommend from here is reading the post I wrote about dual ISDs a while ago on the forum. Many of the lists therein are obsolete, but knowledge is forever.

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by GiledPallaeon

[Cleto0 219]

We can all agree that ECMs are way better than RBDs? ECMs save you ~12 damage a game where RBD is maxed at 3??

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

8 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

We can all agree that ECMs are way better than RBDs? ECMs save you ~12 damage a game where RBD is maxed at 3??

ECM is normally better. The issue kicks in when you deal with fleets that can play around it, like black dice heavy MSU, or bomber fleets.

[PT106 2,316]

1 hour ago, Cleto0 said:

We can all agree that ECMs are way better than RBDs? ECMs save you ~12 damage a game where RBD is maxed at 3??

It depends on what you're maximizing and the play style. RBD is "always-going-to-be-useful-modest benefit" card that is suitable for all situations. ECM is better against burst damage but is generally useless against bombers or anything else that overheats defense tokens (or outright discards/neutralizes them - think BTA Avenger). The way I see it - if ECM saved me (or would've saved me) ~12 damage in 2ISD Motti list, it means only one thing - I didn't play those ISDs aggressively enough. So think what are weak points of your fleet and try to mitigate those with ECM/RBD/EWS/nothing selection.

[Cleto0 219]

I don’t think MSU is a problem for dual ISDs. At least not enough to take away ECMs. What percentage of fleets will actually be MSU?

[PT106 2,316]

14 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

I don’t think MSU is a problem for dual ISDs. At least not enough to take away ECMs. What percentage of fleets will actually be MSU?

Historically MSU is one of the 2ISD bad matchups (think a swarm of TRC corvettes). However in general I would be more worried about full bomber list and a plan to counter it. From my experience RBD gives Motti ISD 1 extra round of life vs max bombers (EWS may be even better against first attack but has other drawbacks).

[Cleto0 219]

2 hours ago, PT106 said:

Historically MSU is one of the 2ISD bad matchups (think a swarm of TRC corvettes). However in general I would be more worried about full bomber list and a plan to counter it. From my experience RBD gives Motti ISD 1 extra round of life vs max bombers (EWS may be even better against first attack but has other drawbacks).

I would be much happier moving to EWS

[PT106 2,316]

6 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

I would be much happier moving to EWS

This one is a question of personal preference, sure.

[Cleto0 219]

Just a much higher ceiling  for EWS and ECM?

[PT106 2,316]

24 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Just a much higher ceiling  for EWS and ECM?

Cost ceiling? Damage mitigation ceiling? Skill ceiling? Uncertainty ceiling?

Not sure what you meant.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, all three options (EWS/ECM/RBD) are valid contenders for that ISD defensive slot, each with its own pros and cons.

[Cleto0 219]

They are all better than cluster bomb, but EWS and ECMs could possibly save you more damage.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Cleto0

[PT106 2,316]

24 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

They are all better than cluster bomb, but EWS and ECMs could possibly save you more damage.

Or less. Or end up being a waste of points. Or save more than necessary while being more expensive (Keep in mind that it doesn't matter if your ISD is at 6 hp ot at 12 hp at the end of the game). Some ISD fleets are better with ECM, some with EWS, some with RBD. (Cluster Bombs/Redundant Shields/Advanced Projectors are not made for ISDs and are very situational for other ships). There are enough competitive fleets that utilized one of these options, so the data to back up this point is there.

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

13 hours ago, PT106 said:

Historically MSU is one of the 2ISD bad matchups (think a swarm of TRC corvettes). However in general I would be more worried about full bomber list and a plan to counter it. From my experience RBD gives Motti ISD 1 extra round of life vs max bombers (EWS may be even better against first attack but has other drawbacks).

I'm going to second this. Only certain twin ISD fleets can handle MSU (some JJ builds, and Vader Cymoons) and as a rule they tend to fall on their faces versus almost anything else. I would not underestimate it, especially since (IMO) Imperial MSU is the one in decline, whereas Imperial MSU was the easier of the two to deal with. Bomber lists, whether Hateful Eight, two-ship, what have you, are definitely the current threat. And Raddus just telling you you lose the maneuver game, but that's an entirely different can of worms.

[Cleto0 219]

My biggest problem is Raddus, do I rush him or wait back and sit in a corner? I definitely stack a lot of navigation commands in those games

[Cleto0 219]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:30 PM, GiledPallaeon said:

BTA Kuats, I find them underwhelming, but the DR does help on the way in. I think Ciena and Valen are probably wasted, and can go back into points elsewhere (e.g. Chimaera).

Can you explain your ideas on this more? I have found the exact opposite in my experience(40+ Double ISD games), but if you have something please share it.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Cleto0
Spelling

[PT106 2,316]

58 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Can you explain your ideas on this more? I have found the exact opposite in my experience(40+ Double ISD games), but if you have something please share it.

BTA Kuat is a one-trick pony that in my opinion costs too much for the trick it does and while the trick can be devastating and very successful up to some level of competition, high-skill players often can and will counter it.  For example you fleet has 5 activations, 5 deployments and is tilted towards getting a first player, which means that you're very likely too lose deployment game (so Kuat might start from suboptimal position) and opponents with 5 or 6 activations will move their last ship after Kuat and should be able to out navigate it that way (or just tank the damage and move on - anecdotal evidence: in one of my recent games I parked my ISD in BTA Kuat front arc and survived two full rounds of shooting (including BTA round) while killing it back with return fire).

[GiledPallaeon 2,873]

6 hours ago, Cleto0 said:

Can you explain your ideas on this more? I have found the exact opposite in my experience(40+ Double ISD games), but if you have something please share it.

I'm going to assume you've read my thesis on the subject and try to keep this reply narrow in scope. I don't like BTA independent of the platform for two reasons. For one, I honestly think it's a bit cheap. I don't like mechanics that remove counterplay like that. Second reason is that it creates a schwerpunkt (lit. "central/critical point") for your list. You are essentially reducing the ISD's role to a single shot, and you are telegraphing that change loud and clear. Particularly in double ISD lists, BTA's lack deployments and will generally struggle to not be outdeployed and therefore counterdeployed. On the Kuat specifically, the point of that ship is to carry Ordnance into battle on an ISD chassis. Removing the Weapons Team slot (and by extension Ordnance Experts or Gunnery Team on a EL Devastator) badly hampers your ability consistently generate crits and good damage in general. Where the Kuat shines compared to the Imperial-1 it has largely superseded is the Defensive Retrofit slot. Prior to my own use of the ship, they were generally considered inferior on that basis alone, and that Minister Tua was a mandatory upgrade. In general that remains the conventional wisdom, and for what it's worth, I happen to think said wisdom is probably correct. For a ship intending to be in the thick of the fighting, improved durability is an enormous plus (especially when it also saves the officer chair).

Re: Ciena and Valen, I've been cold on them for a while and generally, but it comes back to cost effectiveness. It's not exceedingly difficult to outfly the pair and nuke one or both of them with heavy squad wing without reply. The most powerful of such lists can generally do it with relatively little lost efficiency, only needing two to four shots to seal the deal. Such lists almost always have excess capability where they are still more than capable of mowing down the battleships before they present a meaningful tabling threat to the carrier fleet. Dual ISD lists need to be lean, efficient machines, and C&V in my experience just isn't. There are other ways to handle squad-heavy lists that drag down fewer points when you hit a squad light/no squad list. By contrast, Chimaera and Fleet Commands can be enormously impactful at much lower costs.