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How to fix the Scyk; The answers are in the lore.

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5 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Three words.

You.  Are.  Wrong.  Wait, I mean Heavy.  Laser.  Cannon.

Is a HLC scyk better than a cluster or concussion missile Z-95? The Z will do more damage but the scyk will survive longer so its hard to say, but I value damage more as removing the opposition does reduce incoming damage.

 

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1 hour ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

Is a HLC scyk better than a cluster or concussion missile Z-95? The Z will do more damage but the scyk will survive longer so its hard to say, but I value damage more as removing the opposition does reduce incoming damage.

 

You can put Cluster or Concussion missiles on a Scyk. In fact, I'd think that Quinn Jast would prefer to have Ordinance over a Cannon with her recharge ability.

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1 hour ago, DakkaDakka12 said:

The quad is undoubtedly a crowd control ship

 i expect the mining tie to be as cheap as a z-95 and become our go to cheap filler or swarm ship

leaving the z-95 as an alternative because it has shields or as a cheap missile carrier. The Z also has a place in any yv-666 build(especially fun with Moralo Eval, teleport across the board and yell launch fighters feels like Battlestar Galactica)

The scyk should be a little cheaper(maybe 27 pts base?) or as has been pointed out gain linked actions or a more agile manuver dial( I would prefer if they did NOT gain boost as I feel like that would be stepping on A-wings and scyks dont have massive engines while A-wings have 2 that take up almost half the ship.)

I could see them cutting the price (27 also feels right to me; it should much cheaper than an A-Wing without the linked Boost) or changing the upgrade bar, but I don't think they'll do anything to change the dial or action bar. I think the devs are more gun-shy about changing printed materials than they were in first edition.

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6 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



I stopped reading here.  This point sounds like your beef is not with the Scyk, but with the core mechanics of the X-Wing game itself, wherein combat is resolved by offense dice vs defense dice.

To be fair, that's a fine complaint to have.  Lots of people have begrudged the Red vs Green dice nature of X-Wing, as it invites a further layer of variation and chaos to influence the game's outcome.  Ships whose HP rest behind green dice, like the Scyk, have the most potential to  skew the game result due to dice.  If they roll abnormally hot, they become effectively invincible.  If they roll abnormally low, they can toss the game away early. 

X-Wing is, and always has been, fundamentally a dice game.  Sure, strong builds and sound play try to mitigate the dice as much as possible, but 2.0 has done its best to remove a lot of the variance-reliability that a player could build into their lists, which has made games of 2.0 feel a lot more like a dice-fest to me, since with fewer mods on rolls variance is much more pronounced.  Similarly, when two strong players of reasonable skill and experience meet, barring any innate imbalances between their two lists, the winner is very usually the person who had the better dice (Vassal, for instance, can track the dice results and give you a screenshot overall).


Which is precisely why most skirmish and wargames do not have dice for the defender's defense.  For instance, in Armada there are only attack dice, and the defender's defenses are represented by innate shields and hull and defense tokens, which are predictable in how they can be spent (and add an additional layer of tactical decisions and control--when does a player decide to spend or save a defense token?).  In other games, targets have a set "TN" or some other target value an attacker needs to roll to hit, and then the power of the attack can be resolved against the targets' toughness if the attack hits.

By having Red vs Green dice, X-Wing has no way to differentiate "attack accuracy" from "attack power," since the roll to hit-vs-dodge is also the roll that decides how much damage is applied.  The lone exceptions are things like Ion weapons and classic TLT, which have set power.


That's the nature of X-Wing.  Some people love it.  Some people love the game in spite of it.   But it's part of the game, for better or worse, and makes playing (or playing against) 3 Agility ships an adventure in dice skew.

well yes, i think most of us can agree 2.0 was a complete failure in terms of fixing the games core mechanical issues.  but that doesnt change the fact that red dice and green dice are not priced appropriately.

I fly Scyks a lot myself, and they've been essentially gutted in 2.0.   without viable cannons or cost reductions, they simply arent worth it anymore

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4 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

You can put Cluster or Concussion missiles on a Scyk. In fact, I'd think that Quinn Jast would prefer to have Ordinance over a Cannon with her recharge ability.

You can but a Z-95 is a cheaper platform and 2 shield 2 hull is nicer than 1 shield 3 hull because crits are much nastier now.

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14 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Or cannon + Afterburners. Her ability can recharge any upgrade...

Or Prockets and stealth device, Serissu with juke and tractor beam cannon works well in a four ship list.

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9 hours ago, Cloaker said:

The answers certainly lie with costing. But no matter what are opinions are we can all agree on one thing; Scyks will NEVER be a ship with a prevalent meta presence. 

Ever. 

I find your lack of faith disturbing. Sorry just had to.

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15 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

I fly Scyks a lot myself, and they've been essentially gutted in 2.0.   without viable cannons or cost reductions, they simply arent worth it anymore


Viable cannon options would go a long way to giving the B-Wing something to do as well.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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A basic Scyk is 6 points more expensive than a TIE Fighter.  A Shield Upgrade on a TIE Fighter normally costs 8 points, so based on statline alone, a Scyk is already two points cheaper than a TIE Fighter with a Shield Upgrade.  Yeah, the Scyk dial is kinda weak.  It's one of very few which got worse in 2e, but down to 25 points would be extreme.  The fact that it's entirely vanilla while the A-Wing and TIE v1 have linked actions and far better Blue moves with essentially the same statline is rough.  I could see a Scyk going down a little, but not too much.  They've probably got to stay at least 27 points, since at 26 you could run 6 with Drea Renthal.  You'd be the same statline as generic TIE fighters, but with 33% more hit points, and probably easier rerolls.

Mostly, I think what they need carve out a niche is a cannon worth taking.  I don't say "be good."  Not every ship is, but ships should have a role.  A reason why you'd want to take it over another design.  Scyks are cheap-ish Torpedo Carriers, possibly not as good as Y-Wings, but they've got a radically different statline, so they'd feel really different.  That's a portion of a niche.  For Missiles, they're just worse than A-Wings and v1s due to dial, actions, and shield ratio, so that's bad.  They don't even work as the cheap scum missile ship, because Z-95.  But they're the only 2 dice cannon ship, and the cheapest platform for any sort of cannon.  With a decent-enough cannon, the Scyk says: "The reason why you run me is to run this cannon."  Could it be that Ion is this cannon and we've missed it?

TIE Bombers with Barrage Rockets are the same 34 point cost of a TIE Interceptor or TIE Striker.  A Scyk with Ion Cannon is the same 34 points.  The statline is better than Interceptor or Striker, but with far worse action economy.  The statline is a bit worse than a Barrage Rocket Bomber.  But Ion are funny.  On the one hand, everyone complains that they never actually hand out ion tokens.  On the other, folks complain that they don't do damage.  But here's the thing: if an Ion cannon isn't doing more than one hit--that is, it's not dealing ion tokens--then even if it was a normal 3-dice attack, it wouldn't be doing more than a single damage!  Meanwhile, if a 3-dice attack only does 1 hit, the attack probably would have done 0 damage on 2 dice.  There's no clear

Maybe the Scyk is 'Good, Actually (TM)' and we're too afraid of 2e Ion Cannons to notice it.

Yeah, I kinda doubt that too.

But it'd be interesting to test out sometime... 4 with Ion, 2 with Tractor?  3 Ion + Drea + something else?

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15 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Or cannon + Afterburners. Her ability can recharge any upgrade...

Ion Cannon + Crack Shot + Afterburners on Quinn seems really sweet.  Probably not really worth the 49 points given all the other great options Scum has for ships like Palob and 4-LOM and Kavil, but it's sweet.

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

 On the one hand, everyone complains that they never actually hand out ion tokens.  On the other, folks complain that they don't do damage.  But here's the thing: if an Ion cannon isn't doing more than one hit--that is, it's not dealing ion tokens--then even if it was a normal 3-dice attack, it wouldn't be doing more than a single damage!  Meanwhile, if a 3-dice attack only does 1 hit, the attack probably would have done 0 damage on 2 dice. 

Great points! I like ion cannons. I think they are phenomenal on gunboats and I think the added threat of a tractor token could further increase that threat. The ion effect, while hard to trigger, is debilitating and forces token spending and very defensive play from your opponent. 

I suspect this won’t tear up the meta, but this looks fun!

I’ve Got a Scykness

(43) Serissu
(1) Crack Shot
(5) Ion Cannon
Points 49

(35) Quinn Jast
(1) Crack Shot
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 45

(33) Tansarii Point Veteran
(1) Crack Shot
(5) Ion Cannon
Points 39

(33) Tansarii Point Veteran
(1) Crack Shot
(5) Ion Cannon
Points 39

(28) Jakku Gunrunner
Points 28

Total points: 200

Edited by urbanyeti

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I still like Genesis Red with Tractor Beam. It is a MiniBiggs as well, most want to kill him on sight.

If they do not do it, they regret it (Last game against a quite good Scum player my Genesis was the deciding factor in taking his Guri down).

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They are definitely overpriced. 27 seems right due to the dial and action list. 

If I had my way, they would cost 27 points and the hardpoint would reduce the cost of the equipped munition by 1 point.

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18 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


Viable cannon options would go a long way to giving the B-Wing something to do as well.

yeah. Im a bit concerned that they made the exact same mistakes as 1.0 with both the B-wing and Scyk.  gave them a role others fill better and priced them out of worse. hopefully it gets fixed

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5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah but z95s are cheaper

 

5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

They also have a red barrel roll and a worse dial.

 

14 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

 

And 1 less agility than a Scyk

And yet somehow they still feel like a better investment.  It's not that Scyks are necessarily costed particularly wrongly compared to anything else.  It's just that there's always something out there that can do anything they can do, just a little bit better or cheaper.  Khiraxz has the same problem.  Heck, most of Scum has that problem.  But Scyks seem to suffer from this issue more than most.  They have no role, except as "cheap hardpoint platform" in a world where (currently) hardpoints are lackluster at best.  Fingers crossed they get their perfect, stapled-on upgrades eventually.  Until then, they stay in the box.

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3 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

And yet somehow they still feel like a better investment.  It's not that Scyks are necessarily costed particularly wrongly compared to anything else.  It's just that there's always something out there that can do anything they can do, just a little bit better or cheaper.  Khiraxz has the same problem.  Heck, most of Scum has that problem.  But Scyks seem to suffer from this issue more than most.  They have no role, except as "cheap hardpoint platform" in a world where (currently) hardpoints are lackluster at best.  Fingers crossed they get their perfect, stapled-on upgrades eventually.  Until then, they stay in the box.

Z-95s can’t recharge a Stealth Device, use Juke with a Heavy Laser Cannon, or be Sunny Bounder.  Nor can they use Torpedoes.

 

Zs are superior if you want a no-frills, cheap option that packa missiles and/or illicit.   The hardpoint is what makes the Scyk, sure.  And there are certainly better missile carriers available.  But they are the cheapest torp option, and the only cannon option other than Firesprays, YV-666,  Aggressors, or Mist Hunter.  And the pilot abities on the Scyks are all solid.  Their only real problem is the base cost could use a drop in points.  But otherwise they just need some more cannon and torpedo options.

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