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Cloaker

How to fix the Scyk; The answers are in the lore.

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I've flown Scyks as much if not more than any other ship. Sunny is my second favorite pilot in the game. But the Scyk sucks. It is easily one of the worst ships in 2.0 among all factions with the redesign, and unless it gets some revision it will never see widespread competitive play. Reasons being (most of what have been mentioned in other threads but worth mentioning again;

--For one point more the a-wing get boost, segnor's loops, 3 turns, double reposition, and four more blue maneuvers. for 4 points more the TIE interceptor gets a 3 primary, 3 more blues, segnor's loops, boost double reposition and only loses a shield. It isn't even close how bad the scyk is in comparison to it's other faction counterparts

--Green dice are terrible and will always be so their highest ace is just a waste of an init 5 who will do a fine job of allowing you to reroll more blanks

--as stated previously, for 2 points less until the January rebalance when it goes up by 4 points, the jakku gunrunner offers more blocking utility, a vastly better dial, that ridiculous ability

--as stated previously, cannons are pretty much DOA right now

--Their biggest draw as proton torpedo carriers will only be worse when protorps gets bumped up in price Jan

--No linked actions to make them more squirrely or unpredictable, which was probably the only thing that could have saved them at initial design but can never be added back to them now

 

The Genesis Red copy of debris gambit Palob thingy is cute. Sunny can annoy. Nobody is really flying large bases yet so I can't do my Achievement Unlocked of tractoring a Decimator or Ghost with her. But yeah apart from that amusement, there just isn't much to see here.

So then the question becomes, how can it be fixed to where it is at least middle tier or as reasonable an option to put in a list as anything else? Let's consider the lore;

1) "Although the Scyk barely provided more amenities to its pilot than a TIE/LN starfighter did, it had two strong points - it was cheap and its weapon mount was designed to handle nearly anything..."

2) "Smugglers and thugs in employ of the Hutt cartels or similar organizations loved the Scyk fighter for its essential traits of speed and maneuverability."

3) "A "heavy" version of this fighter (more mass for better equipment; does not hinder performance) was also available."

4) "The spacers flew a completely unmodified M3-A Scyk fighter, relying only on skills and maneuverability."

 

Considering how badly it was designed for 2.0 and those things cannot be fixed (dial, no boost, no linked) it pretty much only comes down to working within the future design space. What I'll offer in the hopes that someone at FFG reads it and considers;

1) Cheap like a sucker punch in a Mos Eisley cantina; Point approximations just barely above the TIE/IN (also known as the LN.) Spacer begins just north of TIE fighter territory at 25 points. This is the starting point. Close the delta between the Spacer and Serissu to a 10 point spread instead of 18. Serissu at 35 points and all of the other aces become immediately viable in the same way Inferno squadron is for Imperials. Once people start adding on points it'll be fine in comparison. But that sets the tone for the versatile options below.

2) Smugglers just LOVE it, ya know?; It gets an illicit slot because they're, you know, smuggling stuff.

3) "She's ain't heavy, she's my Scykster"; If you quip Hull Upgrade (with a cost discount hopefully too) gain an additional modification slot for "better equipment." Boom, done.

4) Them Cartel Spacers got skillz, yo; The first generic init 1 to get a talent slot. Yup, I said it. To Hoth with it, give Sunny and Inaldra one too. Talents are not nearly as broken as they once were.

So yeah. Apart from adding new cannons and ordnance (which could result in power creep among other cannon platforms) fixing the Scyk will require some different retooling. It can be done within the chassis itself however. A spacer can dream.

Edited by Cloaker

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4 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

I’m curious to why you think proton torps will be getting more expensive. 

Perhaps only be a point or two.  In my experience of playing nearly 75 2.0 games across three cities, they are the Harpoon Missiles of ordnance currently... the only torp or missile option people are taking apart from the highly specialized barrage bombers. Pro Torps are incredibly and undeniably prevalent on a variety of platforms. they can be put on any ship and allow two engagements of 4 attack dice, denying range bonuses, with damage mods for 4.5% of a list's cost.

 

I bet at 11 points they would still be as prominent as they are now.

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17 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

--Green dice are terrible and will always be so their highest ace is just a waste of an init 5 who will do a fine job of allowing you to reroll more blanks



I stopped reading here.  This point sounds like your beef is not with the Scyk, but with the core mechanics of the X-Wing game itself, wherein combat is resolved by offense dice vs defense dice.

To be fair, that's a fine complaint to have.  Lots of people have begrudged the Red vs Green dice nature of X-Wing, as it invites a further layer of variation and chaos to influence the game's outcome.  Ships whose HP rest behind green dice, like the Scyk, have the most potential to  skew the game result due to dice.  If they roll abnormally hot, they become effectively invincible.  If they roll abnormally low, they can toss the game away early. 

X-Wing is, and always has been, fundamentally a dice game.  Sure, strong builds and sound play try to mitigate the dice as much as possible, but 2.0 has done its best to remove a lot of the variance-reliability that a player could build into their lists, which has made games of 2.0 feel a lot more like a dice-fest to me, since with fewer mods on rolls variance is much more pronounced.  Similarly, when two strong players of reasonable skill and experience meet, barring any innate imbalances between their two lists, the winner is very usually the person who had the better dice (Vassal, for instance, can track the dice results and give you a screenshot overall).


Which is precisely why most skirmish and wargames do not have dice for the defender's defense.  For instance, in Armada there are only attack dice, and the defender's defenses are represented by innate shields and hull and defense tokens, which are predictable in how they can be spent (and add an additional layer of tactical decisions and control--when does a player decide to spend or save a defense token?).  In other games, targets have a set "TN" or some other target value an attacker needs to roll to hit, and then the power of the attack can be resolved against the targets' toughness if the attack hits.

By having Red vs Green dice, X-Wing has no way to differentiate "attack accuracy" from "attack power," since the roll to hit-vs-dodge is also the roll that decides how much damage is applied.  The lone exceptions are things like Ion weapons and classic TLT, which have set power.


That's the nature of X-Wing.  Some people love it.  Some people love the game in spite of it.   But it's part of the game, for better or worse, and makes playing (or playing against) 3 Agility ships an adventure in dice skew.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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2 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:



I stopped reading here.  This point sounds like your beef is not with the Scyk, but with the core mechanics of the X-Wing game itself, wherein combat is resolved by offense dice vs defense dice.

To be fair, that's a fine complaint to have.  Lots of people have begrudged the Red vs Green dice nature of X-Wing, as it invites a further layer of variation and chaos to influence the game's outcome.  Ships whose HP rest behind green dice, like the Scyk, have the most potential to  skew the game result due to dice.  If they roll abnormally hot, they become effectively invincible.  If they roll abnormally low, they can toss the game away early. 

X-Wing is, and always has been, fundamentally a dice game.  Sure, strong builds and sound play try to mitigate the dice as much as possible, but 2.0 has done its best to remove a lot of the variance-reliability that a player could build into their lists, which has made games of 2.0 feel a lot more like a dice-fest to me, since with fewer mods on rolls variance is much more pronounced.  Similarly, when two strong players of reasonable skill and experience meet, barring any innate imbalances between their two lists, the winner is very usually the person who had the better dice (Vassal, for instance, can track the dice results and give you a screenshot overall).


Which is precisely why most skirmish and wargames do not have dice for the defender's defense.  For instance, in Armada there are only attack dice, and the defender's defenses are represented by innate shields and hull and defense tokens, which are predictable in how they can be spent (and add an additional layer of tactical decisions and control--when does a player decide to spend or save a defense token?).  In other games, targets have a set "TN" or some other target value an attacker needs to roll to hit, and then the power of the attack can be resolved against the targets' toughness if the attack hits.

By having Red vs Green dice, X-Wing has no way to differentiate "attack accuracy" from "attack power," since the roll to hit-vs-dodge is also the roll that decides how much damage is applied.  The lone exceptions are things like Ion weapons and classic TLT, which have set power.


That's the nature of X-Wing.  Some people love it.  Some people love the game in spite of it.   But it's part of the game, for better or worse, and makes playing (or playing against) 3 Agility ships an adventure in dice skew.

I bet you didn't stop reading there. You got time, I see you with that Millennium Falcon cup of coffee in your hand right now.

 

But if you DID, it was to prematurely assume something about my perspective and hyper inflate a minute (pronounced my-nyoot) observation to validate or defend your own game state logic. Which you are entitled to do, regardless of how asininely unrelated it is to the topic at large. Cheers!

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Just now, Cloaker said:

You got time, I see you with that Millennium Falcon cup of coffee in your hand right now.


If only, it's a boring old mug that looks like it was pilfered from some nondescript diner.  I don't own any Star Wars mugs, surprisingly.

I guess I don't think the point is as minute as you make it out to be.  Perhaps it's not influential in your own gameplay preferences, but for some folks I think it is.  Myself personally,  I main Rebels as a faction because I hate the swing of Green Dice, and I hate feeling like my wins were because my greens were hot or that my losses were because my greens were cold.*  It's simply not a playstyle I enjoy, and I tend to want X-Wing to feel as little of a dice game as possible... which is something I'm struggling with in 2.0 where there are so few mods on the rolls relative to 1.0. 

Your point made it sound like you had serious frustrations with the green dice resulting in your Scky's blowing up unjustly, to the point you (tongue-in-cheekly) suggested that Serissu was a waste because she only rolls blanks into blanks (which is, statistically speaking, not the case, as she gets you a symbol over 60% of the time.  In fact, from what I've seen, most people think a naked or near-naked Serissu is about the best Scyk option for a Scum list).


*of course, the Green Die skew can be pronounced and influential even with 1 or 2 agility ships.  It is just less pronounced than with 3 Agility ships.

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3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


If only, it's a boring old mug that looks like it was pilfered from some nondescript diner.  I don't own any Star Wars mugs, surprisingly.

Does it have Blue Milk in it though?

7 minutes ago, Okapi said:

The Scyk is fine, rules wise. Fun to fly and different enough to stand out. Just drop its cost and the cost of the cannons a little.

This is my sentiment, I'd like to keep it different enough from the Khirax, but let's be honest, most of the 2.0 was rebranding 1.0. Nothing has changed except they built in the heavy scyk title. If the designers actually designed things and improved something, then we'd be going somewhere or at least it would be different. If they're going to be lazy, then drop the price to balance the ship at least.

 

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Fought this a few weeks ago, it is formidable.

 

Drea Renthal (40)
Dorsal Turret (4)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
R4 Astromech (2)

Serissu (43)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Cartel Spacer (29)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Cartel Spacer (29)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Cartel Spacer (29)
Hardpoint: Cannon (0)
Heavy Laser Cannon (4)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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My whole thing here as to show how a complete overhaul of a bottom tier ship (say what we will, but it's the case) could happen within the design space functionally and effectively. And that is just a testament to how good 2.0 can be. I do believe they'll do SOMETHING to the scyk... and just showing a constructive approach within the lore was what I found fun as an exercise. It really can be made better reasonably.

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1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Equip a 4 pt HLC and git gud

I'm running a 80% win rate in 2.0 at 76 games in, playing in three major Texas city's metas, so pretty alright there. :)

 

But ultimately in this ship's case. it really isn't a question of skill. It's the chassis, otherwise you'd see the pros flying it. It just ain't getting played and for good reason. Check the tournament lists and results, the truth is out there unfortunately. 

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6 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

the truth is out there unfortunately. 

I agree. Its not that great of a ship yet. 

Though a single Syck with HLC does present a threat to medium or big base ships if anyone has been avoiding trying it. 

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6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Though a single Syck with HLC does present a threat to medium or big base ships if anyone has been avoiding trying it. 


Who is wasting points on big base ships?  Is anyone flying medium ships aside from Firespray+Han?

The 'meta' seems pretty heavily skewed to small bases, though you're right that bullseye abilities may become better if the larger bases start becoming a bit more prevalent.

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3 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Who is wasting points on big base ships? 

There are big base glue eaters out there I promise.

The first time one makes a Top 16 (which will be very soon) that list will be on tables across the galaxy. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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8 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

I'm all for adding an Illicit slot to every Scum ship, but which existing Illicit upgrades would you want on the Scyk? 

Cloaking device on a named pilot like Serissu or deadman switch on others.

I am sad inertial dampeners costs a shield now considering a lot of scum ships have only 1 shield and quite a few only have 2 shields.

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You can do a lot worse for 41 points than a Scyk with a Hull Upgrade and Ion Cannon.  Or as I call them, “Muh Dunelizards.”

 

Add 10 points to that, and you’ve got Laetin with Juke.  Or just remove the Hull Upgrade, and run Laetin with Ion and Juke for a cool 44pts.  Even if you miss with Laetin, you still get an Evade.

 

Having run A LOT of Scyks, I feel they’re overall in a decent position during 2.0.  Cannons are meh right now, but as others have pointed out... 4 to 5 Scyks with HLCs are formidable.  Missiles aren’t generally a great option, thanks to Z-95’s and Khyraxz being better platforms for them.  But the torps aren’t a bad way to go anymore.  Ultimately I fee that they have enough options to still be worth considering, but will really take off in 2nd edition once the torp and cannon options get a bit more fleshed out.

Edited by It’s One Of Ours

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Part of the problem is that Scum has a lot of alternatives in that low-cost swarm ship area. You have the Quadjumper, the Z-95,  and the Syck all sharing the space under 30 points, and the Mining Guild TIE Fighter almost certainly joining the competition. The trick is carving out a clear role for the ship without stomping over the other three.

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28 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Part of the problem is that Scum has a lot of alternatives in that low-cost swarm ship area. You have the Quadjumper, the Z-95,  and the Syck all sharing the space under 30 points, and the Mining Guild TIE Fighter almost certainly joining the competition. The trick is carving out a clear role for the ship without stomping over the other three.

The quad is undoubtedly a crowd control ship

 i expect the mining tie to be as cheap as a z-95 and become our go to cheap filler or swarm ship

leaving the z-95 as an alternative because it has shields or as a cheap missile carrier. The Z also has a place in any yv-666 build(especially fun with Moralo Eval, teleport across the board and yell launch fighters feels like Battlestar Galactica)

The scyk should be a little cheaper(maybe 27 pts base?) or as has been pointed out gain linked actions or a more agile manuver dial( I would prefer if they did NOT gain boost as I feel like that would be stepping on A-wings and scyks dont have massive engines while A-wings have 2 that take up almost half the ship.)

Edited by DakkaDakka12

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