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Moneseki

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A hero opens a chest, OL grins when playing the Curse of the Monkey God and hero converts to monkey. The "monkey-hero" ends his turn, which happens to be next to a glyph, and is also within range for the portal. 1. Now, on his following round, can the monkeyhero use to glyph to get to town? 2. Is the monkeyhero allowed to move through the portal? If yes, will it also lose one of its wound marks/timer?

In advance thanks, and also thanks to corbon for answering my other questions(didnt want to make a reply saying thanks). Moneseki

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Typo in the subject-line?

I can't answer this for sure, but I strongly suspect the answer is "no". It's certainly "no" in standard Descent, as monkeys can't take movement actions. Of course, glyph-use works very differently in RtL (it's not strictly a movement action, I don't think), but I would imagine the answer is unchanged.

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Moneseki said:

A hero opens a chest, OL grins when playing the Curse of the Monkey God and hero converts to monkey. The "monkey-hero" ends his turn, which happens to be next to a glyph, and is also within range for the portal. 1. Now, on his following round, can the monkeyhero use to glyph to get to town? 2. Is the monkeyhero allowed to move through the portal? If yes, will it also lose one of its wound marks/timer?

In advance thanks, and also thanks to corbon for answering my other questions(didnt want to make a reply saying thanks). Moneseki

Yes. At least there is no rule saying they cannot.
Monkeys are not allowed to take movement actions, but in RtL using a glyph is not a movement action. Monkeys are explicitly allowed to use the portal (FAQ pg5).

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Corbon said:

 

Yes. At least there is no rule saying they cannot.
Monkeys are not allowed to take movement actions, but in RtL using a glyph is not a movement action. Monkeys are explicitly allowed to use the portal (FAQ pg5).

 

I don't know for sure but, how is moving to town NOT a movement action? It costs one MP. And on other discussions about the Monkey curse, I've seen it said that they cannot spend ANY movement points (MP) at all, for anything.

Descent vanilla rules state "A monkey can move up to 5 spaces on the hero's turn, but cannot take any movement actions."

Moving from a glyph to town costs a movement point as it states later on the same page. Seems pretty cut and dry that a monkey cannot go to town under any circumstances, according to these rules.

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In vanilla descent yes. My question was oriented towards the road to legend expansion(rtl). Sorry for not making it clearer. The moving to town works a little different in rtl compared to vanilla. Still not sure that the monkey can move through the glyph, as the "glyph" information states that "heroes" can move through glyphs. Seems like a monkey isnt a hero. On the other hand, the portal also mentions heroes and its seems valid for a monkey to move through. 

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Moneseki said:

In vanilla descent yes. My question was oriented towards the road to legend expansion(rtl). Sorry for not making it clearer. The moving to town works a little different in rtl compared to vanilla. Still not sure that the monkey can move through the glyph, as the "glyph" information states that "heroes" can move through glyphs. Seems like a monkey isnt a hero. On the other hand, the portal also mentions heroes and its seems valid for a monkey to move through. 

A monkey is  still a hero, just in monkey form.

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Terragen said:

Corbon said:

 

 

Yes. At least there is no rule saying they cannot.
Monkeys are not allowed to take movement actions, but in RtL using a glyph is not a movement action. Monkeys are explicitly allowed to use the portal (FAQ pg5).

 

 

 

I don't know for sure but, how is moving to town NOT a movement action? It costs one MP. And on other discussions about the Monkey curse, I've seen it said that they cannot spend ANY movement points (MP) at all, for anything.

Descent vanilla rules state "A monkey can move up to 5 spaces on the hero's turn, but cannot take any movement actions."

Moving from a glyph to town costs a movement point as it states later on the same page. Seems pretty cut and dry that a monkey cannot go to town under any circumstances, according to these rules.

Just in case you hadn't twigged yet, the RtL glyph rules are different from vanilla. Using a glyph does not cost 1 MP and is not a movement action. It takes your entire turn (as in you may do nothing in the dungeon except leave it), though you can then 'use' one of the buildings in town for a restock action.
 

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Corbon said:

 

 

 

Yes. At least there is no rule saying they cannot.
Monkeys are not allowed to take movement actions, but in RtL using a glyph is not a movement action. Monkeys are explicitly allowed to use the portal (FAQ pg5).

 

 

 

Monkeys are not allowed to use a glyph in RtL. There is no rule that does allow it. Monkeys´ capabilities are pretty much clearly defined, there is no indication that these may be extended.

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Parathion said:

Monkeys are not allowed to use a glyph in RtL. There is no rule that does allow it. Monkeys´ capabilities are pretty much clearly defined, there is no indication that these may be extended.

There is no rule that explicitly allows it, but there is also no rule that explicitly prevents it. Monkeys' capabilities are not clearly defined in RtL, because RtL changed some of the game mechanics without updating the Transformed Heroes concept.

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Parathion said:

 

Corbon said:

 

 

 

Yes. At least there is no rule saying they cannot.
Monkeys are not allowed to take movement actions, but in RtL using a glyph is not a movement action. Monkeys are explicitly allowed to use the portal (FAQ pg5).

 

 

 

Monkeys are not allowed to use a glyph in RtL. There is no rule that does allow it. Monkeys´ capabilities are pretty much clearly defined, there is no indication that these may be extended.

 

 

Care to actually back that up with some rules?

1. Monkeys are still heroes.
DJitD pg16
...the hero is transformed into a monkey...
Note: not 'replaced' by a monkey but transformed into a monkey. The monkey is still the hero, just in a different form.
When a hero is transformed into a monkey, the player must immediately replace his hero figure with the monkey marker. The hero’s turn immediately ends.
Note that the monkey (as it is now) is referred to as a hero.
See also the FAQ where both questions and answers refer to the monkey as a hero.
Additional circumstantial evidence:
Do you believe a monkey can be pit trapped? Almost certainly yes, most people would say. Spiked pit specifically refers to '"when a hero moves into an empty space".
Can the OL spend surges for threat during an attack on a monkey? Almost certainly yes, most people would say. According to the FAQ pg9 the OL can only spend surges for threat on an attack that hits a hero.

2. Monkeys do not, as you claim, have clearly defined capabilities. They have clearly defined restrictions.
DJitD pg16
Monkeys cannot attack and cannot use any items, including potions. A monkey can move up to 5 spaces on the hero’s turn, but cannot take any movement actions. A monkey has the hero’s wounds and fatigue, but has a total armor value of 0.
6
That is 3 'cannots' to 1 'can' in the rules.
FAQ pg6-7, 5
Q: A hero who has been Transformed by either Curse of the Monkey God or Dance of the Monkey God may move up to five spaces and may not take any movement actions. Can that hero take other actions, such as receiving an order token or declaring a Run action? What about a hero who is both Stunned and Transformed?
A: A Transformed hero may not declare any action. He may still use any skills that are appropriate (e.g., Acrobatic, Telekinesis) and may spend fatigue for extra movement points. A Transformed hero who is stunned may only move (i.e., he must choose the “only move” option for being stunned, not the “only attack” option), which in most cases has no effects beyond those of being Transformed. A Transformed hero who has an order token placed on him by means of another hero with Leadership may still use the order, except that he may not make an attack with a Guard order. (Note that while Guard and Aim orders are useless to a Transformed hero, they may still be placed on him by a hero with Leadership.

Q: Can a transformed hero (monkey) leave a dungeon via portal, if someone else has opened the door?
A: Yes. However, the hero remains a monkey for the same length of time.

That is 4 'may do stuff's in answers (ignoring things already explicitly disallowed by the rules) vs 1 'may not' - and that may not (declare action) is already implied in that the monkey cannot attack and gets a fixed amount of movement.

It is quite clear from this IMO that monkeys are 'restricted' from doing certain things, but pretty much only from doing those things. Everything thing else asked about or mentioned has been a yes, with the sole exception of declaring an action (which was implied anyway) - even useless things like Guard orders.

3. Heroes can use glyphs. Monkeys are heroes. Monkeys are not restricted from 'using glyphs' (just from movement actions).

Ergo, monkeys can use glyphs in the Advanced Campaign.




 

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I knew he´d bite cool.gif

 

My line of reasoning extends yours as follows:

Heroes can use glyphs. Monkeys are heroes (granted, no discussion needed from my side).

Monkeys are not explicitly restricted from 'using glyphs' (just from movement actions).

Monkeys are restricted from using glyphs in vanilla Descent.

RtL Descent did not change monkeys´ rules for using glyphs.

Ergo, the vanilla rule is still valid as per the general RtL rule - hence monkeys are not allowed to use glyphs in RtL.

 

Btw, you are not serious in counting "cans" and "cannots" to back up your argument, are you?

 

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RtL didn't change any monkey rules, but it did change glyph rules. Should this change the way monkeys interact with glyphs?

(I'm not trying to take a side in this discussion; I'm playing the "ambiguous" card again - it's my favorite one!)

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Parathion said:

I knew he´d bite cool.gif

 

My line of reasoning extends yours as follows:

1. Heroes can use glyphs. Monkeys are heroes (granted, no discussion needed from my side).

2. Monkeys are not explicitly restricted from 'using glyphs' (just from movement actions).

3. Monkeys are restricted from using glyphs in vanilla Descent.

4. RtL Descent did not change monkeys´ rules for using glyphs.

5.Ergo, the vanilla rule is still valid as per the general RtL rule - hence monkeys are not allowed to use glyphs in RtL.

 

Btw, you are not serious in counting "cans" and "cannots" to back up your argument, are you?

 

4. is where you screwed up. RtL did change hero rules for using glyphs. It specifically changed the glyph rules from something that monkeys are not allowed to do into something that the monkey rules don't mention.

Counting cans and cannots had little to do with my argument other than showing the outright falsehood that you claimed as the basis for your reasoning. "Monkeys´ capabilities are pretty much clearly defined, there is no indication that these may be extended" is , well, bollocks, as demonstrated.

Bit? Of course. It's a sight more interesting discussing Descent than watching crap TV (American Idol, personal opinion only) with my wife. lengua.gif

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Outright falsehood? That was a good one.

My claim is still valid, I can name the monkey´s capabilites with just a few bullet points. Anything else is not allowed so far for monkeys, may it have been explicitly restricted or not.

4. is where you screwed up. RtL did change hero rules for using glyphs. It specifically changed the glyph rules from something that monkeys are not allowed to do into something that the monkey rules don't mention.

So not mentioning it for monkeys makes it automatically allowed? Does not compute.

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 I'm afraid I agree with Corbon, having checked the rulebooks. Nothing in the rules suggests that monkeys cannot use glyphs in RtL, therefore, as heroes (who can use glyphs), they can.

If there were an explicit rule in vanilla Descent that monkeys couldn't use glyphs, I might feel differently, but there isn't. Monkey's inability to use glyphs is simply a consequence of the way glyph-use works. Changing the way glyph-use works changes the answer.

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YellowPebble said:

 I'm afraid I agree with Corbon, having checked the rulebooks. Nothing in the rules suggests that monkeys cannot use glyphs in RtL, therefore, as heroes (who can use glyphs), they can.

If there were an explicit rule in vanilla Descent that monkeys couldn't use glyphs, I might feel differently, but there isn't. Monkey's inability to use glyphs is simply a consequence of the way glyph-use works. Changing the way glyph-use works changes the answer.

I agree that Corbon is technically right, but the fact that the RtL rules never mention the terms "monkey" or "transformed hero" in any context at all makes me inclined to believe the rulebook author(s) never even thought about it. I certainly don't think Parathion's reasoning that vanilla set a precedent is unreasonable.

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mahkra said:

YellowPebble said:

 

 I'm afraid I agree with Corbon, having checked the rulebooks. Nothing in the rules suggests that monkeys cannot use glyphs in RtL, therefore, as heroes (who can use glyphs), they can.

If there were an explicit rule in vanilla Descent that monkeys couldn't use glyphs, I might feel differently, but there isn't. Monkey's inability to use glyphs is simply a consequence of the way glyph-use works. Changing the way glyph-use works changes the answer.

 

 

I agree that Corbon is technically right, but the fact that the RtL rules never mention the terms "monkey" or "transformed hero" in any context at all makes me inclined to believe the rulebook author(s) never even thought about it. I certainly don't think Parathion's reasoning that vanilla set a precedent is unreasonable.

And that, my friend, is the reason we continue to have issues with the rules of this games we all love. 

 

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 Well it is true that rules discussions are fun.

Of course, from a gameplay point of view, it makes next-to-no difference which way you decide to rule in this case: it's just a bit awkward if it comes up in the middle of a game and there is disagreement.

I'm not in agreement with the "vanilla set a precedent argument", basically because the vanilla rules never mention monkeys and glyphs either. I don't believe the designers ever considered when writing the original vanilla rules whether monkeys could use glyphs. When it came up as a question, consulting the rules produced "no" as the most reasonable answer, and given that it doesn't have a huge effect on game-play one way or another, this is (sensibly), the way it was ruled.

The same logic should be applied to the RtL rules, where again, it doesn't matter much (in fact, it matters even less in RtL, as a monkey going to town is actually quite difficult- it is almost certain to take at least one turn getting to the glyph), and again, it isn't explicitly stated, but this time, the most logical answer from the rules as written is "yes" (monkeys may use glyphs). Arguing that the "rule" from vanilla should carry across is silly, because "monkeys cannot use glyphs" was never a rule in the first place.

As a parallel, it is never explicitly stated in the RtL rules that you can use glyphs when Webbed, but I don't think many would disagree that using glyphs when Webbed is certainly allowed under RtL (and it certainly isn't in vanilla). It's just a consequence of the new glyph-use rules.

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In certain situations, letting a monkey use a glyph robs the OL of a turn of monkeydom.  However, those situations can be avoided by just not dropping a transformation trap on a hero adjacent to a glyph.

If we assume that non-explicit situations have to be resolved every time they come up, Monkeys can use glyphs in RtL.  If we assume that changes in the relevant rules do not cause an update to non-explicit situations (i.e. if we stick to the precedents), then Monkeys cannot use glyphs in RtL.  However, there is a precedent that we should ignore previous resolutions when rules get updated; specifically, terrain rule changes demanded a re-defining of how the crushing block trap interacts with terrain.

Personally, I don't think there are enough treasure chests next to glyphs for it to matter, but that we might as well ask.

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For the sake of discussing the problem further, I did some detective work. It might be useful to some, scoffed at by others. Here is what I came up with:

1. From the brand new FAQ, in red (thus a very recent ruling):

Q: Can a monkey perform "movement actions" which cost no MP? For example, pick up tokens or items?
A: No.

"movement actions" in quotation marks is not the same as movement actions without quotation marks. Without quotation marks, a movement action is anything done by spending a MP. "Movement actions" which cost no MP could be interpreted as any "movement" that a hero is normally supposed to be able to do without spending MP. This would include using Glyphs or swapping places with the Shadow Soul familiar. That interpretation might however be questionable.

2. Further, also in red, I found:

Q: On the Earth Pact skill card, when it says "if you do not move during your turn," does that refer only to normal movement (when you spend movement points to enter an adjacent space), or to all effects that alter your position (such as Shadow Soul, Knockback, using a glyph of transport, etc.)?
A: The Earth Pact skill card refers to all movement, including all effects that alter the figure's position.

This answer, even though given to something completely unrelated, seems to support the notion that all effects that alter the figure's position is "movement". Since monkeys cannot perform "movement actions" which cost no MP and since using a Glyph in RtL is, according to the answer above, a "movement" that costs no MP, I would deduce that Monkeys cannot use Glyphs of Transport (nor swap places with Shadow Soul).

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Ispher said:

For the sake of discussing the problem further, I did some detective work. It might be useful to some, scoffed at by others. Here is what I came up with:

From the brand new FAQ, in red (thus a very recent ruling):

Q: Can a monkey perform "movement actions" which cost no MP? For example, pick up tokens or items?
A: No.

"movement actions" in quotation marks is not the same as movement actions without quotation marks. Without quotation marks, a movement action is anything done by spending a MP. "Movement actions" which cost no MP could be interpreted as any "movement" that a hero is normally supposed to be able to do without spending MP. This would include using Glyphs or swapping places with the Shadow Soul familiar. That interpretation might however be questionable.

Further, also in red, I found:

Q: On the Earth Pact skill card, when it says "if you do not move during your turn," does that refer only to normal movement (when you spend movement points to enter an adjacent space), or to all effects that alter your position (such as Shadow Soul, Knockback, using a glyph of transport, etc.)?
A: The Earth Pact skill card refers to all movement, including all effects that alter the figure's position.

This answer, even though given to something completely unrelated, seems to support the notion that all effects that alter the figure's position is "movement". Since monkeys cannot perform "movement actions" which cost no MP and since using a Glyph in RtL is, according to the answer above, a "movement" that costs no MP, I would deduce that Monkeys cannot use Glyphs of Transport (nor swap places with Shadow Soul).

Sorry, doesn't wash (not scoffing as such, it just contains fundamental flaws).

'Movement' and 'movement actions' overlap but have separate sections. Being a member of one does not make (or even imply, which is a mistake you make above) that you are a member of the other. Its a classic Venn Diagram. Two overlapping circles, #1 is 'movement' and #2 is 'movement actions'
You have area A (movement which is not movement actions - eg space to space), area B (the overlap, movement which is a movement action - eg using stairs) and area C (movement actions which are not movement - eg opening a chest).

In vanilla, using a glyph is part of area B. It is therefore not allowed to monkeys who are banned from the whole of circle #2.
In RtL using a glyph is part of area A. It is not a part of circle#2 and is therefore not banned for monkeys.

It really is that simple. cool.gif

As an aside "stuff that costs 0MP" would be a third circle that interects both other circles but does not intersect area B (there are no movement actions that are also movement that cost 0MP). It would have area D (neither movement nor movement actions - eg Attack), Area E (0MP and movement - eg RtL Glyph use) and area F (0MP and movement actions - eg pick up a token).

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mahkra said:

YellowPebble said:

 

 I'm afraid I agree with Corbon, having checked the rulebooks. Nothing in the rules suggests that monkeys cannot use glyphs in RtL, therefore, as heroes (who can use glyphs), they can.

If there were an explicit rule in vanilla Descent that monkeys couldn't use glyphs, I might feel differently, but there isn't. Monkey's inability to use glyphs is simply a consequence of the way glyph-use works. Changing the way glyph-use works changes the answer.

 

 

I agree that Corbon is technically right, but the fact that the RtL rules never mention the terms "monkey" or "transformed hero" in any context at all makes me inclined to believe the rulebook author(s) never even thought about it. I certainly don't think Parathion's reasoning that vanilla set a precedent is unreasonable.

It is unreasonable because it relies on a vanilla rule that has been replaced in RtL. Using a glyph was not specifically banned in Vanilla. It was banned only because doing a movement action was banned (and still is). RtL removes using a glyph from being a movement action*. Therefore using a glyph is no longer something that was (and still is) banned.

*for example, Movement actions are explicitly things that may be done 'In addition to moving...' (DJitD pg16). In RtL using a glyph to go to town is explicitly incompatible with moving - if you move, you can't use a glyph to go to town and if you use a glyph to go to town you can't move.

Interestingly a monkey may not move back  to the dungeon from town in RtL because the glyph movement rules in RtL are the same coming from town as they are in vanilla. It is only going to town that RtL changes the rules.

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