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TheSapient

Meditation and strife

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Just now, nameless ronin said:

I'm not usually one to cry for nerfs and I'm not ready to level any accusations just yet, but any mechanic that allows you to fail a check and still get a benefit from opportunities makes me a little bit apprehensive.

This is true of literally all "X Style" katas. I find the Water one particularly weird.

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Just now, nameless ronin said:

I'm not usually one to cry for nerfs and I'm not ready to level any accusations just yet, but any mechanic that allows you to fail a check and still get a benefit from opportunities makes me a little bit apprehensive.

Some rank 4 katas work on miss also.

But the opponent have a resist check.

Pelting hail affects multiple targets though, and have no resist, and no other technique (courtier's strongest shuji, or shugenja visage of horror stuff) is as much "frightning" as a fly by arrow.

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1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

Yup, it's quite a large number.

But they have resists, and one ring is TN 1..

So you kind of have to target people in the right stances.

Edited by Avatar111

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8 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Some rank 4 katas work on miss also.

But the opponent have a resist check.

Pelting hail affects multiple targets though, and have no resist, and no other technique (courtier's strongest shuji, or shugenja visage of horror stuff) is as much "frightning" as a fly by arrow.

 

7 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

But they have resists, and one ring is TN 1..

So you kind of have to target people in the right stances.

Things like resists are why I don't think it's appropriate to consider every such mechanic automatically overpowered. On the other hand, being able to combine techniques so potentially all these opportunity-over-success techniques can be combined with multiple target techniques (like Coiling Serpent + Thunderclap Strike) has me thinking this is just future abuse waiting to happen.

Edited by nameless ronin

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2 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

 

Things like resists are why I don't think it's appropriate to consider every such mechanic automatically overpowered. On the other hand, being able to combine techniques so potentially all these opportunity-over-success techniques can be combined with multiple target techniques (like Coiling Serpent + Thunderclap Strike) has me thinking this is just future abuse waiting to happen.

Just earth stance it.

#nerfearthstance.

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On 10/30/2018 at 1:59 PM, omnicrone said:

In my table it is very frequent, for all characters, to engage in passions. The "metagamer/powergamer" way of having passions is beelining into having 3 of them (you can start with two, so that is easy) and diversify into a social passion, preferably one that is pursuable in courtly situations/intrigues, a solitary passion, usually related to an artisan or trade skill, and a survivalist passion that can be engaged during travels or "almost anywhere". But even you choose your passions strictly for flavor and don't powergame them at all, they will still be pursuable without much issue I think (unless your DM is an ***hole).

Where does it say you can start with 2? I see you can buy 3 advantages and 3 disadvantages at start...

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4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Where does it say you can start with 2? I see you can buy 3 advantages and 3 disadvantages at start...

You have one mandatory Passion from question 11 and you CAN get a second one from q.13.

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Yeah, this wasn’t meant to be as intense as AtoMaki is making it sound. Nor does it warrant half cocked accusations that I’m doing fun wrong. Never mind having already said this will be a discussion between the player and myself.

“Ok, what happens when you unmask? Does anyone witness the outburst? How do they react? Is there somewhere else your character should be right now? How will this add some flair or drama to the story?”

The rules clearly state that unmasking should be dramatic, and ultimately push the story forward. Players going out to the woods to avoid any “negative” story beats for their character defeats the purpose of unmasking in the first place. If there isn’t something interesting happening when the player attempts to unmask, then they haven’t unmasked yet. It’s just boiling at the surface, until the player can find a fun and interesting moment to let it all out.

In any case, if a player unmasks, there will be some sort of lapse of judgement, a moment of weakness per Rokugani standards, and ultimately a display of humanity. It will be up to the player, but one thing I won’t abide is someone cheating the system and getting all their strife cleared without some sort of narrative contribution.

In short, you want the ability to keep dice with strife back? You gotta vent in some way that pushes the story forward, and shows the character succumbing to the burdens of Samurai life.

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33 minutes ago, Mark It Zero said:

Yeah, this wasn’t meant to be as intense as AtoMaki is making it sound. Nor does it warrant half cocked accusations that I’m doing fun wrong. Never mind having already said this will be a discussion between the player and myself.

[snip]

In any case, if a player unmasks, there will be some sort of lapse of judgement, a moment of weakness per Rokugani standards, and ultimately a display of humanity. It will be up to the player, but one thing I won’t abide is someone cheating the system and getting all their strife cleared without some sort of narrative contribution.

I feel like a lot of the people blowing out of proportion missed this important statement:

19 hours ago, Mark It Zero said:

Thanks for picking up what I’m putting down! It’s meant to be a purely narrative thing, completely approved by the player, and ultimately just a way to push the story forward really.

Emphasis added.

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55 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

I feel like a lot of the people blowing out of proportion missed this important statement:

Emphasis added.

Ultimately, it is an easy way to lose honor and glory. Hence why courtiers have low composure.

@Hida Jitenno me too i'm confused.

Edited by Avatar111

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9 minutes ago, Mark It Zero said:

The rules clearly state that unmasking should be dramatic, and ultimately push the story forward.

The rules actually say none of these. There are exactly two-and-a-half things an Unmasking should comfort: it should fit the scene (and the motions leading up to it) and it should have some kind of narrative consequence. That's all. Unmasking can be something funny or bad*ss like a quip or a one-liner, and/or completely devoid of story like taking a walk in the woods. It can be something trite and ultimately purposeless. If there is nothing to do about it, then, as the GM, you are not entitled to invoke some BS just to make it matter (this might be even against the rules, actually). Let it go. It is not worth the fuss.  

 

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32 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

The rules actually say none of these. There are exactly two-and-a-half things an Unmasking should comfort: it should fit the scene (and the motions leading up to it) and it should have some kind of narrative consequence. That's all. Unmasking can be something funny or bad*ss like a quip or a one-liner, and/or completely devoid of story like taking a walk in the woods. It can be something trite and ultimately purposeless. If there is nothing to do about it, then, as the GM, you are not entitled to invoke some BS just to make it matter (this might be even against the rules, actually). Let it go. It is not worth the fuss.  

 

usually, Unmasking should be a loss of honor or glory. At least in most of their example that is the "penalty".

sure, be narrative about it, but it needs a penalty. then, you can also use it to leverage success on a task or somthing like that, but at the cost of "samurainess" (honor/glory).

Edited by Avatar111

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41 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

The rules actually say none of these. There are exactly two-and-a-half things an Unmasking should comfort: it should fit the scene (and the motions leading up to it) and it should have some kind of narrative consequence. That's all. Unmasking can be something funny or bad*ss like a quip or a one-liner, and/or completely devoid of story like taking a walk in the woods. It can be something trite and ultimately purposeless. If there is nothing to do about it, then, as the GM, you are not entitled to invoke some BS just to make it matter (this might be even against the rules, actually). Let it go. It is not worth the fuss.  

 

Yet, every example except one calls for a loss in glory, honor, and/or status. One even forces the player to challenge for a duel, which brings in heavier risks. I’m not even suggesting anything as costly as any of those examples.

All I’m requiring is some sort of narrative consequence. Narrative consequence to me implies drama and story forward thinking. A funny quip, or one liner, is hardly narrative consequence on its own.

So you can double down on your baseless assumptions all you want. You’ve already agreed with the only point I’ve been making, right up there in your reply, before again pointing out how I’m apparently breaking the rules.

The only real hard rule besides narrative consequence is that the player never loses control of their character, which I’ve already clearly stated multiple times would never happen.

I’m going to assume we are coming at this from similar angles, and you’re just failing to relate or you’re just determined not to dial back your “I know better than you” attitude.

Edited by Mark It Zero

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15 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

usually, Unmasking should be a loss of honor or glory. At least in most of their example that is the "penalty".

sure, be narrative about it, but it needs a penalty. then, you can also use it to leverage success on a task or somthing like that, but at the cost of "samurainess" (honor/glory).

Yeah.  Being narrative about this is pretty important for a fun session, IMO.  If my table is just saying...

"I unmask"

"Ok.  You lose 5 honor"

"Ok.  I use the strike action.  My dice say I miss."

...I'm not enjoying myself.  

Edited by TheSapient

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4 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Yeah.  Being narrative about this is pretty important for a fun session, IMO.  If my table is just saying...

"I unmask"

"Ok.  You lose 5 honor"

"Ok.  I use the strike action.  My dice say I miss."

...I'm not enjoying myself.  

despite the fact that I am VERY critical of rules and balance, and made it clear that I think L5R needs some adjustments.

the golden rule of pen&paper rpg will always be "roleplaying and fun". if that isn't there, nothing else really matters.

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49 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

The rules actually say none of these. There are exactly two-and-a-half things an Unmasking should comfort: it should fit the scene (and the motions leading up to it) and it should have some kind of narrative consequence. That's all. Unmasking can be something funny or bad*ss like a quip or a one-liner, and/or completely devoid of story like taking a walk in the woods. It can be something trite and ultimately purposeless. If there is nothing to do about it, then, as the GM, you are not entitled to invoke some BS just to make it matter (this might be even against the rules, actually). Let it go. It is not worth the fuss.  

Seems like we're not all on the same page about what "narrative" means in this context. If something is devoid of story, it doesn't affect the narrative. To me, that disqualifies it from being an Unmasking. Narrative refers to the narrative of the game - to something that drives the story. Weaving a pretty little tale that is effectively inconsequential doesn't add to the narrative.

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31 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Yeah.  Being narrative about this is pretty important for a fun session, IMO.  If my table is just saying...

"I unmask"

"Ok.  You lose 5 honor"

"Ok.  I use the strike action.  My dice say I miss."

...I'm not enjoying myself.  

Word.

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1 minute ago, Mark It Zero said:

I’m going to assume we are coming at this from similar angles, and you’re just failing to relate or determined not to dial back your “I know better than you” attitude.

I think we do, but I think you kinda raised the red flag at the very beginning. So let's settle with this: Unmasking should have narrative consequences but having spirits randomly cursing the player is generally not a consequence one should consider unironically. 

3 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

 If something is devoid of story, it doesn't affect the narrative.

This isn't necessarily true. At the bare minimum, even the most eventless breather scene eats up time that in turn affects the story narrative. There might be other consequences: the character realizes something important in their newfound tranquility in the woods, they catch sight of a not-yet-important NPC, or they find a very nice and serene clearing where they will take an important NPC for a picnic. 

The book examples can become duds too like bending a "bad" principle, exposing an opening when there are no hostile creatures nearby, challenging another to a friendly sparring bout, breaching etiquette against an oni (my personal favorite), panicked retreat while you are all alone, and rage in skirmish/mass battle.

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23 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

This isn't necessarily true. At the bare minimum, even the most eventless breather scene eats up time that in turn affects the story narrative. There might be other consequences: the character realizes something important in their newfound tranquility in the woods, they catch sight of a not-yet-important NPC, or they find a very nice and serene clearing where they will take an important NPC for a picnic. 

The book examples can become duds too like bending a "bad" principle, exposing an opening when there are no hostile creatures nearby, challenging another to a friendly sparring bout, breaching etiquette against an oni (my personal favorite), panicked retreat while you are all alone, and rage in skirmish/mass battle.

I don't consider 'eating up time" to be something that affects the narrative. Moreover, the consequences in your example are not consequences of the Unmasking, but of the scene. Having scenes is how you play the game in the first place. The Unmasking has to have narrative consequences to be an Unmasking - I'm assuming the scene it occurs in has a purpose of its own, otherwise there's no point in even having that scene.

That the book examples can become duds is not an argument. If they are a dud in a given instance, then they're not an Unmasking in that instance. That doesn't stop them from being Unmaskings when they are used appropriately and actually do have narrative consequences.

Edited by nameless ronin
clarity

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'Eating up time' can certainly have consequences. Not in the cases we're positing, which are "when you have a couple of days of downtime", but mid-adventure "you spend a few hours going to a secluded spot in the woods and venting" is certainly putting you at a disadvantage versus the machinations of the adversaries, which continue apace. Interestingly, this should result in a further Honor (and possibly Glory) hit, because you're choosing yourself over your mission (breaching, AT LEAST, Duty).

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