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senf71

Why does lion give + water?

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The fact that being from Lion clan gives + to water ring seems very odd to me.  I would expect them to give + fire.  Anyone know any explanation for this?  

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The Lion clan are seen in a sort of duality.  On one hand we have their passion and pride, seen as the Fire trait.  On the other hand they are masters at negotiating both politics and battle, seen as Water.  I think they opted to give them Water as the prime stat for the clan allowing the family and school bring out the hot headed qualities if you wanted (matsu berzerker.)

Edited by shosuko

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2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

The Lion clan are seen in a sort of duality.  On one hand we have their passion and pride, seen as the Fire trait.  On the other hand they are masters at negotiating both politics and battle, seen as Water.  I think they opted to give them Water as the prime stat for the clan allowing the family and school bring out the hot headed qualities if you wanted (matsu berzerker.)

Except matsu berzekers have earth so they can end up with amazing composure and be the cool headed characters. Much more than a bayushi manipulator who cries and unmask all the time.

I really have an issue with what composure is in this game and who gets to have the highest score of composure.

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Matsu family is +1 Fire or Earth, and they're really only the fiery type among the Lion, the Akodo are disciplined tacticians and commanders. Actually 2/4 of Lion families give Water as an option also, the Ikoma and Kitsu can both do so. Other than the Matsu known as hotheads, the Lion don't really scream Fire to me. They're not really innovators or inventive a lot of the time, they're more steadfast in their adherence to bushido and learn how to apply their great historical knowledge and military history to current problems. Matsu school is both +1 Fire and Earth, I expect Earth is more to do with their ability to tank damage - they don't actually care how high their composure is anyway, since they basically want to Unmask to get their school ability. 

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1 hour ago, senf71 said:

The fact that being from Lion clan gives + to water ring seems very odd to me.  I would expect them to give + fire.  Anyone know any explanation for this?  

Water was always the associated ring to the Lion. It was the Ring of War in previous editions, harboring the Strength attribute and being used for Battle rolls (Battle was tied to Perception back then) and Kitsu always had Water affinity as well. Akodo also tended to have high Fire (Intelligence + Agility) while Matsu, although always fighting in Fire stance, most of the times had Fire and Air as their dump rings. A starting Matsu in 4E could conceivably start with a Water Ring of 4.

In 5E the Water/Earth that was natural to Matsu isn't quite right, so they are clearly trying to push them to be Earth/Fire.

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Earth/Fire Matsu is justifiable, if you squint for a bit and think about it. They are known for their intensity, but also for just straight up following orders as directed regardless of how much they seethe over them. Or maybe that's unmasking? I guess I'll know when I can buy the pdf.

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I think we have to re-think what exactly does it mean to Unmask a lot vs being hot-headed. From what I see, one can be hot-headed but very composed in the sense that they will be coherent with themselves. Which means being constantly hot-headed! For this characters, unmasking could be revealing to be the exact opposite, under stress, reverting perhaps to fear, or maybe to sadness, who knows, it depends on personality. Being "hot-headed", aka high Fire, doesn't have anything to do with Composure and unmasking, or not necessarily. 
And to justify Scoprion with low Composure, well, first of all they don't care that much if they unmask, second they are probably sacrificing something to achieve something else, while doing so...

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Scorpions literally wear masks.

Can't see them having low composure.

but earth doubling down on both composure and endurence is weird.

hence why togashi monks and family gets lot of earth. Because they gave them void, so they had to "make up for it" in term of stats.

A ring that doesnt count for either composure and endurance, thats harsh.

 

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3 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Scorpions literally wear masks.

Can't see them having low composure.

but earth doubling down on both composure and endurence is weird.

hence why togashi monks and family gets lot of earth. Because they gave them void, so they had to "make up for it" in term of stats.

A ring that doesnt count for either composure and endurance, thats harsh.

 

Togashi always were pushed towards Earth/Void fluffwise in previous editions, even if their family bonus was Reflexes in 4E. Hitomi was Air/Void and Hoshi Fire/Void (or it was the other way around? I don't remember) as being the more "offensive" tattooed monks. Togashi crunch in 5E is probably the one that best fits their fluff out of all editions, the tattoos not being able to have exclusive effects non-withstanding (I like the change to the tattoos though).

Scorpion wear masks as a mockery of the concept of mask. Fluffwise they are the most prone to some of the examples of unmasking in the book, however, as we discussed, yeah, Scorpions are built to be more calculated type and act like that out of pragmatism rather than because they stressed out.

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20 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Matsu family is +1 Fire or Earth, and they're really only the fiery type among the Lion, the Akodo are disciplined tacticians and commanders. Actually 2/4 of Lion families give Water as an option also, the Ikoma and Kitsu can both do so. Other than the Matsu known as hotheads, the Lion don't really scream Fire to me. They're not really innovators or inventive a lot of the time, they're more steadfast in their adherence to bushido and learn how to apply their great historical knowledge and military history to current problems. Matsu school is both +1 Fire and Earth, I expect Earth is more to do with their ability to tank damage - they don't actually care how high their composure is anyway, since they basically want to Unmask to get their school ability. 

If anything, the Lion are not creative/inventive at all. In previous editions it's said that the Lion lose to the Crane in duels because Lions still teach and follow the original teachings, while the Crane have adapted and grown. Despite the end of Akodo's book on War being blank to be added to, the Lion don't so much innovate tactics as pull on history to find which tactic used by their ancestor is right here.

While the Matsu can be passionate, Lion are much more proud than passionate at their core. But they are very disciplined. The Matsu Gempukku among other things involves fasting for like 3 days in a room where a buffet is laid out, and you aren't allowed to eat a single grain of rice or you fail. Oh, and then after that - and some other things - they brand you and it is a point of pride to have the brand being in a painful, but visible place. For all their fury, and the discount older editions gave them for taking brash, the Lion lore is just full of them being incredibly disciplined and resilient.

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7 hours ago, omnicrone said:

Togashi always were pushed towards Earth/Void fluffwise in previous editions

They're Agility/Void in Way of the Dragon, and Kaze-Do has always been Kaze-Do.

6 hours ago, Delahunt444 said:

In previous editions it's said that the Lion lose to the Crane in duels because Lions still teach and follow the original teachings, while the Crane have adapted and grown.

Maybe it'll take a different path now, but Kakita Noritoshi's great duelling insight was founded on doing exactly what the Lion do with battlefield tactics - looking back a few hundred years and using something forgotten that counters the current dominant style. Rokugan is a very traditional place, no matter what animal marks your mon. Kakita's greatest technique is both the first and last technique taught to his students. Kaiu's knowledge was too advanced for his contemporaries, and when his diaries were discovered centuries later, they were still something to learn from. Agasha's ciphered notes likewise advanced knowledge of the world. Isawa's unrivalled mastery? City of Gold. Etc.

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20 hours ago, BitRunr said:

They're Agility/Void in Way of the Dragon, and Kaze-Do has always been Kaze-Do.

Maybe it'll take a different path now, but Kakita Noritoshi's great duelling insight was founded on doing exactly what the Lion do with battlefield tactics - looking back a few hundred years and using something forgotten that counters the current dominant style. Rokugan is a very traditional place, no matter what animal marks your mon. Kakita's greatest technique is both the first and last technique taught to his students. Kaiu's knowledge was too advanced for his contemporaries, and when his diaries were discovered centuries later, they were still something to learn from. Agasha's ciphered notes likewise advanced knowledge of the world. Isawa's unrivalled mastery? City of Gold. Etc.

Oh, definitely. Just the Lion always seemed to have the Tradition dial set to 11 while everyone else more or less had it at 10. I just remember seeing stuff about the Lion being traditionalist to a fault, and stagnant from it in some ways - even though that is counter to what their ancestors taught.

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