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Ken at Sunrise

New point and upgrade list - What changed

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18 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

This makes me laugh - lets take the nerf bat to a AG1 - 5Hull - Atk2 - Def2 ship that has 1 special ability and a crazy dial.

Whats that - "Oh it really sucks that I can't just roll up into your face with more firepower as your little gunrunner will throw my fragile powerhouse fighters around"

Yes they are annoying and powerful and provide another threat if not dealt with - it depends on the match up (that's the great thing about 2.0 so far).

This video shows that the balance (and points) is right - although Alex won with them it could so easily have gone the other way.

 

 

Utter nonsense.  People would have lost their minds if a 28 point tie fighter could move or reduce agility for an action, let alone both.  The gunrunner is stupid cheap for what it does and should be first in line for a price increase.  The only other ship in competition for a bigger NPE is Palob, but at least you can fly around his ability with most ships.

Edited by HolySorcerer

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8 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

his makes me laugh - lets take the nerf bat to a AG1 - 5Hull - Atk2 - Def2 ship that has 1 special ability and a crazy dial.

^ This. You can nuke them off the table before they have a chance to do much of anything if you actually pay attention. Stay out of range 1 and focus fire. Don't wait till you're point blank to do so, start at range 3 and fight the urge to ignore the slow 2 die attack ship. Their greatest strength lies in people wanting to ignore them or thinking of them as nothing more than slow blockers (1.0 think) with a neat trick instead of debuffing support ships. Yes it takes away from dealing with your opponent's "better armed" ships, but doing otherwise is leaving the debuff boats to aid their allies in getting shots through. In a list they are flying in, like all support craft, they are the weak link that cripples your opponent's list when they're gone.

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2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

^ This. You can nuke them off the table before they have a chance to do much of anything if you actually pay attention. Stay out of range 1 and focus fire. Don't wait till you're point blank to do so, start at range 3 and fight the urge to ignore the slow 2 die attack ship. Their greatest strength lies in people wanting to ignore them or thinking of them as nothing more than slow blockers (1.0 think) with a neat trick instead of debuffing support ships. Yes it takes away from dealing with your opponent's "better armed" ships, but doing otherwise is leaving the debuff boats to aid their allies in getting shots through. In a list they are flying in, like all support craft, they are the weak link that cripples your opponent's list when they're gone.

 

The problem isn't ignoring them.  By the time you can focus fire, it's also tractored, reduced your agility and dumped you into a kill zone, so even if you kill the stupid thing, you traded one of your ships for a 28pt one and came out firmly on the bottom.  Skilled players don't just give you tugs.

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Just now, MasterShake2 said:

 

The problem isn't ignoring them.  By the time you can focus fire, it's also tractored, reduced your agility and dumped you into a kill zone, so even if you kill the stupid thing, you traded one of your ships for a 28pt one and came out firmly on the bottom.  Skilled players don't just give you tugs.

If you have to focus fire a 28 point ship or lose then there is an issue.  The game doesn't need a super cheap biggs.

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I know this is a bit stupid but how do think the list in the video would have done against this.

Good matchup or bad?  I would imagine - 2 gunrunners gone before they do a thing leaving 3 almost in tact tanky ships to deal with 2 low health aces.

Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter 58
Contraband Cybernetics 5
Ship Total: 63
   
Han Solo — Customized YT-1300 54
Trick Shot 1
Concussion Missiles 6
0-0-0 3
Unkar Plutt 2
BT-1 2
Lando’s Millennium Falcon 6
Ship Total: 74
   
Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter 58
Contraband Cybernetics 5

Ship Total: 63

   
Include QR codes Include obstacle/damage deck choices 
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0
 
 
Edited by Hugeman

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20 minutes ago, Hugeman said:

I know this is a bit stupid but how do think the list in the video would have done against this.

Good matchup or bad?  I would imagine - 2 gunrunners gone before they do a thing leaving 3 almost in tact tanky ships to deal with 2 low health aces.

Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter 58
Contraband Cybernetics 5
Ship Total: 63
   
Han Solo — Customized YT-1300 54
Trick Shot 1
Concussion Missiles 6
0-0-0 3
Unkar Plutt 2
BT-1 2
Lando’s Millennium Falcon 6
Ship Total: 74
   
Trandoshan Slaver — YV-666 Light Freighter 58
Contraband Cybernetics 5

Ship Total: 63

   
Include QR codes Include obstacle/damage deck choices 
Simple Fancy Reddit BBCode HTML
0
 
 

If only large ships were more roundly viable right now.

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59 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

It was!!!

I really enjoyed the game though. It was a really interesting tactical puzzle. I realised after that I should've gone full beans on Whisper when I got the chance. If I'd been braver, it maybe would've been worth trading one of my Defenders for it, the open season on TIEs for the one remaining would've been a joyous release of explosive violence.

My feeling is that the whole Sloane mechanic might be over the top and points won't fix it. The Phantom might be a great platform for her but the ship itself is fine. Fun to play, fairly balanced with it's difficulty.

Double stress is the killer.

 

A fun game indeed! I had some terrible turns there, but I think the threat of Sloane was enough to skew your targeting priority, have you taking inopportune shots, and spread damage awkwardly along my whole list. Sloane had more than 10pts of value in that game. 

It was one of those games where I came away feeling outplayed, yet still on top. A strange one! 

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3 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Utter nonsense.  People would have lost their minds if a 28 point tie fighter could move or reduce agility for an action, let alone both.  The gunrunner is stupid cheap for what it does and should be first in line for a price increase.  The only other ship in competition for a bigger NPE is Palob, but at least you can fly around his ability with most ships.

Yes indeed - a spacetug (or equivalent) in an imperial faction would be "utter nonsense".

I look forward to a more in-depth explanation with factual evidence (not just anecdotes or opinion) of this requirement to re-cost the Gunrunner.

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11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

TIE with focus and HR?  1.11 damage against 2 unfocused green dice.  Juke TIE with Howlrunner and no Focus?  1.25 damage.  But a Juke Black is 30% more expensive than an academy, 15% more expensive than a naked Black.

That's fascinating to me.  Juke does more damage 12.8% more damage per ship, but slightly lower damage per point.  If Juke was 3 points, it'd win out over a naked Black in damage-per-point with Howlrunner present, but only just barely.  Either way, you'll get hosed if you have to fight Luke.  A full swarm of 6 TIEs drops from like 7.5 damage down to 2.8.

I like Howlrunner Juking TIEs for the defensive boost taking an evade gives them and for getting your opponent either has to spend a focus defensively or take the damage.  Plus I can’t fly more then 4 TIEs in formation ? so Juking TIEs make a nice squad for me.

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11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

TIE with focus and HR?  1.11 damage against 2 unfocused green dice.  Juke TIE with Howlrunner and no Focus?  1.25 damage.  But a Juke Black is 30% more expensive than an academy, 15% more expensive than a naked Black.

That's fascinating to me.  Juke does more damage 12.8% more damage per ship, but slightly lower damage per point.  If Juke was 3 points, it'd win out over a naked Black in damage-per-point with Howlrunner present, but only just barely.  Either way, you'll get hosed if you have to fight Luke.  A full swarm of 6 TIEs drops from like 7.5 damage down to 2.8.

I like Howlrunner Juking TIEs for the defensive boost taking an evade gives them and for getting your opponent either has to spend a focus defensively or take the damage.  Plus I can’t fly more then 4 TIEs in formation ? so Juking TIEs make a nice squad for me.

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7 hours ago, player2072913 said:

A fun game indeed! I had some terrible turns there, but I think the threat of Sloane was enough to skew your targeting priority, have you taking inopportune shots, and spread damage awkwardly along my whole list. Sloane had more than 10pts of value in that game. 

It was one of those games where I came away feeling outplayed, yet still on top. A strange one! 

Those poor stressed TIEs, Sloane is a horrible boss!

My priority was clear though, kill her and only her. But you made it really hard to get good shots on her without taking a lot of TIE fire, that made me try and stick to hit and run. Then I ran out of run :D

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10 hours ago, Hugeman said:

Yes indeed - a spacetug (or equivalent) in an imperial faction would be "utter nonsense".

I look forward to a more in-depth explanation with factual evidence (not just anecdotes or opinion) of this requirement to re-cost the Gunrunner.

 

A spacetug using it's tractor array reduces a target's average defense roll by .375 results (assuming no mods, .625 with mods) per target shooting at it. Howlrunner improves the accuracy of a TIE fighter by .5 results, so a spacetug is about 3/4 as effective as Howlrunner in a vacuum for buffing generics. While the Tug does have to get at range 1 of the target and spend an action, it doesn't require the same tight formation and is 12pts cheaper.
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Let's say, your spacetug drops in behind an enemy that hasn't activated at R1. What action is mathematically the strongest to deal damage even if the Tug is the only ship shooting? If the target is going to focus or evade all of the math says tractor gets you the best damage improvement over a focus or lock (reduces their defense by .625 vs increasing your damage by only .5).
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If a spacetug tractors a target and they have no defense tokens, statistically if you shoot at it with a mere 2 ships, the tractor did as much to increase damage as a focus or lock would've for an attack 3 ship (reduces their defense results by .75 vs a focus or lock on a 3 attack ship increasing damage by .75) and that's assuming it has no tokens.
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Against Luke, a Spacetug is just better than Howlrunner, reducing his results by .675 per shot vs. .5 increase in damage from a reroll. This also fails to factor in that reducing the AGL on 2 AGL ships can make 2 attack shots undodgable meaning there's not even hope of good dice.
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Let's say you have Luke coming at you, would you rather have Howlrunner and 4 TIEs focused or debuff him with a spacetug and hit him with 4 focused Z-95's?
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Average damage for Howlrunner and 4 TIEs is 2.185
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Average damage for the 4 Z-95's while Luke is -1 die is 3.5
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Not 100% accurate because I'm assuming Luke's dice are always focused which is not entirely true if he's rolling a lot of double results, but is just excluding the Tug's damage and only using the 4x Z's. If the Tug focuses and shoots at Luke with the Z's instead of tractoring, it only does 1.25 damage, so the Tug added 2 damage by just running up to range 1 and sacrificing it's attack to tractor Luke.
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All of this is just the raw damage calculation on reducing a die on defense and doesn't factor in the possibility of extra damage from hitting rocks or how much the ship has to be played around and how much more damage you could be taking from sub optimal engagements.
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TL:DR Tractor probably way too strong for it's current point cost
Edited by MasterShake2

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I have been flying Quads heavily since they came out. I have flown them more than the rest of the other 10+ players in my local league combined. I know they are weaker now from experience. Sure their price has dropped, but the upgrades that make them shine are gone. I really miss Pattern Analyzer & Outlaw Tech on the Gunnrunners and Unkar misses his Primed Thrusters. Plus, not being able to reduce a 3 agility ship to 1/0 agility. In my local area, the good players know what to expect from them and know how to counter them. They go down quick. You should be able to take out at least 1 before they can get a range 1 action.

And when they get in close, plan your maneuver as if they are going to toss you onto the rock/debris. If you think you are going to be tossed onto a rock, dial in a k turn, sloop, or a talon since you aren't going to have an action anyway. Debris? Plan a green. Fly smarter. I mop up players that don't plan for their ships to get tractored. You might not be able to make the most efficient course of action, but you can easily plan to counter them. The turns they use their tractor, they usually won't have a defensive mod. Most of the players I go against that don't do well versus Quads aren't used to seeing them.

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20 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

The problem isn't ignoring them.  By the time you can focus fire, it's also tractored, reduced your agility and dumped you into a kill zone, so even if you kill the stupid thing, you traded one of your ships for a 28pt one and came out firmly on the bottom.  Skilled players don't just give you tugs.

Assuming you are not a medium or large base....and failed at range control.

Tugs are crit magnets and really sloooow.

 

And as already stated above, they now miss certain crews and Tech (actually Scum doesn' t even get Tech upgrades in faction), they were easier in 1 ed (flew them myself).

Edited by Managarmr
Spell

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On 10/29/2018 at 11:42 PM, MasterShake2 said:
All of this is just the raw damage calculation on reducing a die on defense and doesn't factor in the possibility of extra damage from hitting rocks or how much the ship has to be played around and how much more damage you could be taking from sub optimal engagements.
-
TL:DR Tractor probably way too strong for it's current point cost

All of this assumes a player would be that inept that you would have Luke facing a quad and 4 Z-95's that all have arc on Luke (or said Tie swarm for the other example).

This is all theory - show me some games where the spacetugs overpowered their opponents making the game a foregone conclusion before it started (ala V1.0 Nym-Miranda -or Manaroo) because I must admit I am just not seeing it.

And again I ask - how does this "swarm" fare against two bare YV's and Han in the Falcon.

BTW how awesome was this game.

 

Edited by Hugeman

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The tug is undercosted.  28pts for AGL2, 5 hull and 2 attack is perfectly fine even if you don't account for the massive skew that is the ability to auto-tractor targets.  The fact that we see so many of them in the competitive formats right now does nothing to deter this.  If you don't believe it's current costing regime is a problem, that's fine, but it's costing is definitely wrong.

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30 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

The tug is undercosted.  28pts for AGL2, 5 hull and 2 attack is perfectly fine even if you don't account for the massive skew that is the ability to auto-tractor targets.  The fact that we see so many of them in the competitive formats right now does nothing to deter this.  If you don't believe it's current costing regime is a problem, that's fine, but it's costing is definitely wrong.

Lots of tugs smashing everyone here -NOT!!!

I will happily change my tune should they start appearing in more than 4 lists in the top 50.

Perhaps its the Tie bomber that needs a points adjustment  - it is appearing everywhere.

Edited by Hugeman

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Both!

The tug is a decent jouster at 28 points.  The TIE Bomber is likewise decent without ordnance.  Munitions and Tractor Array make them significantly above the power curve.  

This isn't the days of mega nerfs and card errata.  We aren't asking for them to be removed from competition, they both just need a points increase.  How much is open for debate but I'm confident that any objective analysis will show Bombers and Tugs near the front of the line for price bumps.  (Redline probably just ahead of them.)

Edited by gamblertuba
Nerfs is a word phone!

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I had an idea, maybe it's not so easy but.... just to talk about....

Instead of increase the cost of some ships i think that would be great (and much more complicated) to decrease the cost of un used ships. 

So everybody sould be happy!

And more ships becomes playable!

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36 minutes ago, Manolox said:

I had an idea, maybe it's not so easy but.... just to talk about....

Instead of increase the cost of some ships i think that would be great (and much more complicated) to decrease the cost of un used ships. 

So everybody sould be happy!

And more ships becomes playable!

Yeaaaah fun in concept, but there are lots of ships that aren’t quite worth their cost compared to other options, but making them any cheaper would allow an extra of that ship in a list, making them overpowered.

Im all for cutting some prices—large ships in general are the prime candidate—but you have to understand that they can’t do it willy-nilly.

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12 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

Yeaaaah fun in concept, but there are lots of ships that aren’t quite worth their cost compared to other options, but making them any cheaper would allow an extra of that ship in a list, making them overpowered.

Im all for cutting some prices—large ships in general are the prime candidate—but you have to understand that they can’t do it willy-nilly.

And with the app FFG has the possibility to say "no more than 4 of ship x, even if pointwise more x fits in".

Lots of other wargames restrict the total number of a certain unit in your squad/group/bataillon/fleet/whatever (often even stuff like if you have 2 y you cannot have more than 1 z)  while still having point costs for the units. FFG only using point cost of the individual unit as limiter how many fit in a squad unneccessarily limits design space.

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