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JBento

Got Some Rules Answers From FFG

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1) Curriculum options can be selected multiple times - the redundant entries are a mistake will be corrected in a future errata.

2) Coiling Serpent is as intended, though it is missing "one ready weapon of one of your targets for Opp spent this way" from the first use.

3) Iaijutsu Cuts are missing "that you can grip with one hand" in the Activation part of the Kata. No naginatas for you, but if you happen to get your hands on a Razor-Edged Bisento, Iai all the jutsu away you want.

4) Wait is supposed to be Attack, Scheme, and Support, so now you can't Water stance people in the face twice per round. "Any action" in the second part of the effect really DOES mean ANY action.

Edited by JBento

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5 minutes ago, JBento said:

4) Wait is supposed to be Attack, Scheme, and Support, so now you can't Water stance people in the face twice per round. "Any action" in the second part of the effect really DOES mean ANY action.

I'm gonna abuse the living crap out of this with my Hiruma Stance Dancer ^_^

Edited by AtoMaki

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Do you have their answers in writing, so we can see their exact wording?

Someone who is willing to be active for a long time should start a FAQ thread of official answers and periodically update the first post as people report what they've been told.

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28 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Do you have their answers in writing, so we can see their exact wording?

Someone who is willing to be active for a long time should start a FAQ thread of official answers and periodically update the first post as people report what they've been told.

1). School curriculum options can be selected multiple times. Any redundancies (such as Rank 1 Kata and Striking as Air both appearing at the same rank) will be corrected in a future update.

For right now, I encourage GMs to pick an appropriate replacement from a different technique category for their player (for instance, choosing an Air Shūji, or a ritual, or similar technique appropriate to the character to replace Striking as Air). Warrior's Resolve/Courtier's Resolve are often good choices, because they're generically useful to all characters, but GMs can also pick a fitting option or even let their players pick something appropriate!

 

2). Coiling Serpent Style is intended to scale, and lets you choose one additional weapon from one of the targets of the attack per <OP> spent this way.

This effect is certainly potent, but in practice in games I have played and run, I have not observed it to be an automatic shutdown of melee characters. It forces them not to rely on a single weapon, but that doesn't mean they cannot act at all.

 

3). The short answer is that Iaijutsu Cuts cannot be used with weapons that cannot be wielded in a one-handed grip.

 

4). The Wait action's Activation will be corrected in a forthcoming update. The Activation field should read: "Activation: As an Attack, Scheme, and Support action...[the remainder of the text as printed]."

There are no current plans to change the second effect, however, we're always keep our eye on things that might become a problem. If it does become a problem for your group, please tell us, as this will help us assess if it should be updated—detailed input is very valuable to us as we plan for the future!

I do suspect that we will reinforce in the eventual FAQ that GMs are always entitled to disallow PCs attempting to Wait for triggers that are outside of the realm of reasonable possibility (as they are with any proposed action that is nonsensical).

 

Also, standard "Hi, thanks for writing, keep those questions/feedback coming, etc." stuff

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13 hours ago, JBento said:

1) Curriculum options can be selected multiple times - the redundant entries are a mistake will be corrected in a future errata.

2) Coiling Serpent is as intended, though it is missing "one ready weapon of one of your targets for Opp spent this way" from the first use.

3) Iaijutsu Cuts are missing "that you can grip with one hand" in the Activation part of the Kata. No naginatas for you, but if you happen to get your hands on a Razor-Edged Bisento, Iai all the jutsu away you want.

4) Wait is supposed to be Attack, Scheme, and Support, so now you can't Water stance people in the face twice per round. "Any action" in the second part of the effect really DOES mean ANY action.

1) makes sense...

2) coiling serpent is busted. i don't understand how they don't see that. i am genuinely confused.

3) ok. they really think iaijutsu cut rising blade should be useless for duels (compared to crossing cut). sad.

4) still way too strong, but at least not broken.

 

bonus: gotta love answers like that....  "I do suspect that we will reinforce in the eventual FAQ that GMs are always entitled to disallow PCs attempting to Wait for triggers that are outside of the realm of reasonable possibility ."

lol, it gets so much into a  "well, IT COULD HAPPEN" kinda of useless discussions with a player. sure GM can always be the harsh police, but that ain't fun. What can realistically happen or not ? weiiiird.

Edited by Avatar111

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Not sure why the insistence Coiling Serpent is "broken". It's one opportunity to bind a ready weapon per turn, and only applies to attacks. They can't bind a weapon you have sheathed, and they can't stop you from sheathing a weapon. So you can use water to draw and attack, or Iaijutsu to strike at them also (keeping in mind, every samurai should be carrying like 3 valid iaijutsu weapons, your tanto counts), or if you have martial arts, you've got two fists, two legs and a mouth. They have to roll a LOT of opportunity to stop you from hitting them period. 

And remember, on the battlefield everything is honorable, Akodo kami said so himself, so kicking them in the d*ck when they're binding your weapon hand is a legit strategy. 

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19 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Not sure why the insistence Coiling Serpent is "broken". It's one opportunity to bind a ready weapon per turn, and only applies to attacks. They can't bind a weapon you have sheathed, and they can't stop you from sheathing a weapon. So you can use water to draw and attack, or Iaijutsu to strike at them also (keeping in mind, every samurai should be carrying like 3 valid iaijutsu weapons, your tanto counts), or if you have martial arts, you've got two fists, two legs and a mouth. They have to roll a LOT of opportunity to stop you from hitting them period. 

And remember, on the battlefield everything is honorable, Akodo kami said so himself, so kicking them in the d*ck when they're binding your weapon hand is a legit strategy. 

but they do relatively big dmg to you WHILE binding your weapon.

sure, if you have 10 katanas sheated so that you can iaijutsu or water stance all rounds. cool enough. (exageration).

and water stance is not that good defensively and offensively. while he gets to do 4dmg 4deadliness with his trident and his best ring. and only needs 1opp to nerf you a lot.

now, a dude with a trident does that every goddang time he attacks... it gets so repetitively tedious as a GM to deal with that... like, honestly, boring. its basically like if a guy disarm you every round with one opp and you can't counter it unless you take out another weapon or punch him...

 

its the fact that it is so easy to do (1opp, hit or miss) and have no resist. its the fact that it happens all the time the dude attacks... god bless you if you have 2-3 players that decide to do a snaring team.

i feel they playtested that game with super narrative oriented players who were very soft in munchkinism. basically not understanding that some repetitiveness and "perfect/binary" actions gets super tedious to deal with. even if there ARE ways to deal with them, it is painful.

Edited by Avatar111

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I mean, I get that L5R doesn't get a monster manual or anything, and sometimes, for a special NPC, you are going to want to make a character that is on the level of a PC.

That said though, most adversaries as presented are not built with more than one kata. Most Samurai in the Empire are not rank 6 masters.

The most times you are going to have to worry about your players getting hit with Coiling Serpent is if another player is doing it. L5R has never been particularly balanced for PVP

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13 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

I mean, I get that L5R doesn't get a monster manual or anything, and sometimes, for a special NPC, you are going to want to make a character that is on the level of a PC.

That said though, most adversaries as presented are not built with more than one kata. Most Samurai in the Empire are not rank 6 masters.

The most times you are going to have to worry about your players getting hit with Coiling Serpent is if another player is doing it. L5R has never been particularly balanced for PVP

the players hitting with coiling serpent is a pain for a GM to deal with. it is a strategy you always have to play around. all. the. fights.

while i'm ok with that most of the time (after all, all characters have their style) the fact that coiling serpent is so low level, and so easy to pull off and not having any mechanical resist/counters... it basically come up every time they attack someone.

and sure, i can find ways around it... but it makes the whole thing a bit of a joke when it is part of so many attacks, because it have so few drawbacks, and is easy to achieve.

Edited by Avatar111

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Just now, Avatar111 said:

the players hitting with coiling serpent is a pain for a GM to deal with. it is a strategy you always have to play around. all. the. fights.

Arrows. More bandits. Snare them first. Get in their face if they are snaring with spears, spear them if they are doing it with fists. Being predictable is the easiest way to get killed in this system

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5 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Arrows. More bandits. Snare them first. Get in their face if they are snaring with spears, spear them if they are doing it with fists. Being predictable is the easiest way to get killed in this system

yup, i can meta game it. and will do that all the fights. because they use a "binary" tactic. i'm the gm after all, i can just put more enemies on them, so many that they won't be able to bind them all.

it is a bit like using earth stance in duels. sure, its counterable if you metagame a bit. but it is still not fun.

 

i am "ok" with the effect of coiling serpent. if it would be a harder to pull off (as many opp as vigilance?) or had counter (resist?).

 

again. just an opinion. i just don't like binary options that are so good you need a lot of the game to change when you face them. it is not a style of design i enjoy. You can find this a lot in card games and some board games (which I am ok with in those games) but not in pen&paper rpgs.

Edited by Avatar111

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I think you give munchkinism too much credit. The GM should really be slapping your wrist if you insist on such mechanical optimization. Anybody who like, isn't a Mantis or other Minor Clan member should balk at using a fisherman's tool on the battlefield. If you're particularly dedicated to bushido (such as perhaps a Lion) you'd rather be dead than use such a weapon. Akodo's leadership says there are six weapons of the samurai: long sword, knife, short sword, great sword, spear and bow. You also can't in good conscience do a lot of snaring in a duel, that's probably cheating, unless you're in maybe like an explicit grappling match. L5R has not and never will be D&D (except maybe when WoTC owned part of it), people who insist on playing it as such will have a bad time for going outside the design scope and intent. 

Plus like @Amanda the Panda says,  if you get known to be "that dork with the trident" it's perfectly okay for the GM to have people know this and plan accordingly. That's not meta, that's "hey, it's that buttface with a trident causing trouble in our neighborhood, he's constantly using the Coiling Serpent Style". 

Edited by UnitOmega

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3 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

yup, i can meta game it. and will do that all the fights. because they use a "binary" tactic. 

a bit like using earth stance in duels. sure, its counterable if you metagame a bit. but it is still not fun.

 

i am "ok" with the effect of coiling serpent. if it would be a harder to pull off (as many opp as vigilance?) or had counter (resist?).

 

again. just an opinion.

 

Is it really metagaming though?  If this is an effective, and ubiquitous technique in fights, characters in the world would naturally expect and try to counter it.  

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1 minute ago, UnitOmega said:

I think you give munchkinism too much credit. The GM should really be slapping your wrist if you insist on such mechanical optimization. Anybody who like, isn't a Mantis or other Minor Clan member should balk at using a fisherman's tool on the battlefield. If you're particularly dedicated to bushido (such as perhaps a Lion) you'd rather be dead than use such a weapon. Akodo's leadership says there are six weapons of the samurai: long sword, knife, short sword, great sword, spear and bow. You also can't in good conscience do a lot of snaring in a duel, that's probably cheating, unless you're in maybe like an explicit grappling match. L5R has not and never will be D&D (except maybe when WoTC owned part of it), people who insist on playing it wrong will have a bad time for going outside the design scope and intent. 

Plus like @Amanda the Panda says,  if you get known to be "that dork with the trident" it's perfectly okay for the GM to have people know this and plan accordingly. 

if narrative becomes the answer to a mechanical rule. you lost me. i don't go there. we will have to agree to disagree. narrative doesn't patch bad design for me. never. despite the fact that i love narrative.

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4 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Is it really metagaming though?  If this is an effective, and ubiquitous technique in fights, characters in the world would naturally expect and try to counter it.  

well i create the encounters... so obviously, i know 2-3 of my players have this technique, I will put stuff to counter it.

but it shouldnt be as black and white (binary). sure they should have easier time vs some kind of opponents because of their technique in fights, but making it "you cannot" and making it "it will happen every time they attack, on hits or miss". is a bit... too much.

same thing as earth stance. i don't like it because of its binary status. (big bushi in an intrigue stance just turtle up in earth stance. courtiers can't do nothing to him (mechanically) unless they go out of their way to circle the rock. Same thing as earth stance in duels... sure, you can go around it with the exact, right pattern. but it doesnt make it less, too stiff/binary for my liking).

while i dont mind air stance, because it makes it harder, but not downright impossible.

Edited by Avatar111

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7 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

well i create the encounters... so obviously, i know 2-3 of my players have this technique, I will put stuff to counter it.

but it shouldnt be as black and white (binary). sure they should have easier time vs some kind of opponents because of their technique in fights, but making it "you cannot" and making it "it will happen every time they attack, on hits or miss". is a bit... too much.

same thing as earth stance. i don't like it because of its binary status. 

while i dont mind air stance, because it makes it harder, but not downright impossible.

I guess from my perspective, it is the GM's job to build a game around the characters the players bring to the table.    Regardless, either

a) the GM develop's plans for the NPC based on the GM's knowledge of the player's strategies or

b) the NPC's live in and understand their world, and develop apporpriate strategies.

NPC's can know about Coiling Serpent in the same way they can know about bows.  It isn't metagaming to have NPC's take cover.  Why is it metagaming to have NPC's shoot arrows at the guy with the trident?

EDIT:  I realize this is a bit pedantic, so I'll say no more on it.

Edited by TheSapient

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Just now, TheSapient said:

I guess from my perspective, it is the GM's job to build a game around the characters the players bring to the table.    Regardless, either

a) the GM develop's plans for the NPC based on the GM's knowledge of the player's strategies or

b) the NPC's live in and understand their world, and develop apporpriate strategies.

NPC's can know about Coiling Serpent in the same way they can know about bows.  It isn't metagaming to have NPC's take cover.  Why is it metagaming to have NPC's shoot arrows at the guy with the trident?

sure, totally understand your point of view.

but in my book, when a technique or stance is so strong that it becomes its own thing and you have to play around it, a bit like some game changing cards in card game that have only a very few counters, its time to get out that nerf bat. I am not 100% decided on how to change coiling serpent and earth stance. but i know they need to change.

again, if your group of players are fine with them. and don't think of them as too OP or, that they hard block too much stuff and make the gameplay less enjoyable, then good for you guys! really.

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45 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

yup, i can meta game it. and will do that all the fights. because they use a "binary" tactic. i'm the gm after all, i can just put more enemies on them, so many that they won't be able to bind them all.

it is a bit like using earth stance in duels. sure, its counterable if you metagame a bit. but it is still not fun.

 

i am "ok" with the effect of coiling serpent. if it would be a harder to pull off (as many opp as vigilance?) or had counter (resist?).

 

again. just an opinion. i just don't like binary options that are so good you need a lot of the game to change when you face them. it is not a style of design i enjoy. You can find this a lot in card games and some board games (which I am ok with in those games) but not in pen&paper rpgs.

I don't like CSS for pretty much the exact reverse reason: my players won't use this often (Tattooed Monks or some other specific fighting style notwithstanding), but I know that if I let NPCs pull this stuff - even if not often - the group will grumble about it. And I'd say they'd have cause - it just doesn't feel fun.

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1 hour ago, UnitOmega said:

I think you give munchkinism too much credit. The GM should really be slapping your wrist if you insist on such mechanical optimization. Anybody who like, isn't a Mantis or other Minor Clan member should balk at using a fisherman's tool on the battlefield. If you're particularly dedicated to bushido (such as perhaps a Lion) you'd rather be dead than use such a weapon. Akodo's leadership says there are six weapons of the samurai: long sword, knife, short sword, great sword, spear and bow. You also can't in good conscience do a lot of snaring in a duel, that's probably cheating, unless you're in maybe like an explicit grappling match. L5R has not and never will be D&D (except maybe when WoTC owned part of it), people who insist on playing it as such will have a bad time for going outside the design scope and intent. 

Plus like @Amanda the Panda says,  if you get known to be "that dork with the trident" it's perfectly okay for the GM to have people know this and plan accordingly. That's not meta, that's "hey, it's that buttface with a trident causing trouble in our neighborhood, he's constantly using the Coiling Serpent Style". 

I believe the Trident stat line is also intended to represent the Jumonji-yari or the Maga-yari, but your points still stands.

Anyone smart seeing a character armed with a snaring weapon should be able to take it as a sign to expect Coiling Serpent Style and change tactics. 5e has been pretty good about having ways for characters to handle techniques that appear overpowered in a vacuum.

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8 hours ago, TheSapient said:

@JBento

Sorry to ask for more, but would you mind including the original questions in with the answers?  We'll want them if we ever create a FAQ thread  - maybe something like this one:

 

THe wall of text I sent:
Hi. Some questions: 1) Are the options in the school curriculums supposed to be pickable more than once? If yes, then some schools have redundant entries. If not, the example in Advancements is wrong. 2) What's the effect of Coiling Serpent Style for you spending more than 1 Opp in the first option? Additional weapons affected? Is CSS REALLY supposed to have no check to resist and instead be an automatic shutdown of melee folks? 3) Iaijutsu Cuts should have "razor-edged weapon grippable in one hand" as the requirement, otherwise you get a "divide by 0 error, please reboot universe" in the the first effect if you do it with, say, a naginata. Or it shouldn't, depending on your intent. 4) Wait action, as written, is utterly abusable with Water Stance. I assume it's supposed to ALSO have the types of the action you ready? And does it really allow you to do any action if the trigger doesn't come to pass, even those that would normally not be allowed by Wait (like movement)? Thanks

 

I'd like to point out to the "but samurai wouldn't use trident" people that the art of the Daidoji Iron Soldier depicts him wielding a trident. And Iron Forest Style says that a) it's not that easy getting in the face of the trident-wielder and b) you're almost certainly taking Strife and Damage for doing so.

CSS is certainly not UNBEATABLE - I never use tactics that I can't counter in any game, just in case the GM tries to duplicate them on me. It's just that it takes either too much effort or too much a dip in effectiveness than a rank 2 kata should warrant.

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