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Jeff Kaos

Unwilling to buy 2 core sets. Should I pass on this game?

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I think its funny that this game has been out for 2 ******ed years and the OP drops the "Hey should I play this game if I refuse to buy 2 cores" bomb only to never speak again and this stupid thread devolves into 3 pages. 

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To start, buy one core set per player. You can get 2 players out of one core set if there is no overlap of roles. Then, either buy scenario packs or another core set if you feel your deck isn't working out. I think buying scenario packs is better, as the upgraded cards an new options are more interesting than seconds of the core cards. Of course, I have lost 3 campaigns and won none, so I may be doing it wrong. :D

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On 11/20/2018 at 9:56 AM, Huzbek said:

I think its funny that this game has been out for 2 ******ed years and the OP drops the "Hey should I play this game if I refuse to buy 2 cores" bomb only to never speak again and this stupid thread devolves into 3 pages. 

Ironically a similar thread is currently active on board game geek around this basic issue. Sigh.

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So the new Marvel LCG FFG is putting out MSRPs for $60 and contains a full set of cards. No need to buy a second core. This is why we complain. Customer feed back is a good thing and often has the desired results. I don't see them going back and redoing Arkham or any other LCG's core set as a complete set for $60 any time soon. But new games in the future and certainly any 2.0 or reissued games will hopefully get this treatment and this multiple core nonsense will come to an end.

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Posted (edited)

I only JUST got a second core set because friend wanted new tokens and then gifted me his cards because he already had a 2nd core. You don't need one. Things may be a bit more difficult, but it does force you to try more varied deck builds. You will have to be committed though if you want more deck-building options. It's not a cheap game, but I've more than gotten my money's worth out of it.

I am a firm believer that you do not need 2 cores. Still. Years later.

Edited by Soakman

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14 hours ago, Mep said:

So the new Marvel LCG FFG is putting out MSRPs for $60 and contains a full set of cards. No need to buy a second core. This is why we complain. Customer feed back is a good thing and often has the desired results. I don't see them going back and redoing Arkham or any other LCG's core set as a complete set for $60 any time soon. But new games in the future and certainly any 2.0 or reissued games will hopefully get this treatment and this multiple core nonsense will come to an end.

Depends on the game.  Arkham wouldn't have had the card pool it started out with if it was only 1 core. 

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Another thing to consider is many cards in the Champions core set is max 1 per deck.  This probably made it a bit easier to have a reasonably diverse card pool while still giving players a full play set and staying under their budget for contents in the box.

I hope Champions is successful because that will show FFG they don't need to stick to their safe LCG model if the game and IP are strong enough.  Not only does it do the 1 core set for a full play set which washes away the biggest complaint of an LCG, but it also doesn't mix all the card types per each pack.  That let's people be more selective about the products they want to buy, which will make the game way more casual friendly.  Though the downside to this model is that it's possible that pack availability might be up and down for the game depending on villain and hero popularity.  Wolverine packs constantly being sold out while Starfox packs flood the shelf for instance.  We'll see if that's a reality. 

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6 hours ago, C2K said:

Depends on the game.  Arkham wouldn't have had the card pool it started out with if it was only 1 core. 

Yeah, not sure you understand the situation being referred to. To have a complete play set of cards for investigators for Arkham, you need to buy 2 cores. All the extra monster and story cards are a complete waste. The new marvel game MSRP is $20 more than Arkham but is complete. 

FFG does reprint based on demand. So yeah, that Wolverine pack will always be getting reprinted while the starfox may sit on the shelf but won't get reprints. I am not terrible interested in the Marvel game, I am just glad FFG woke up, raised MSRP and made sure a single core was all that was needed.

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That’s fair but I was on the fence about the card game. I was invested in Arkham files board games and almost gave it a pass. I’m not sure I would have passed with a higher MSRP but I think since Arkham has such a tie to traditional board gaming, the lower MSRP helped with convincing us die rollers to give it a try. Now it’s a favorite and probably my favorite Arkham game.

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3 hours ago, Mep said:

Yeah, not sure you understand the situation being referred to. To have a complete play set of cards for investigators for Arkham, you need to buy 2 cores. All the extra monster and story cards are a complete waste. The new marvel game MSRP is $20 more than Arkham but is complete. 

I would think C2K refers to the situation in which Arkham wouldn't have had such a varied card pool if it was being offered as a "complete" play set for the same price

The price will be a big deciding factor on how well this game will sell, I would imagine, since it is no longer competing with games like LOTR, Arkham or even with Marvel VS or Legendary, but with more expensive games, which might look more exciting than "just a stack of cards"

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A full set of cards for the core set for Arkham is in fact $80 MSRP, well below $60. When viewed in that light, and many do view it in that light, the new Marvel game is actually cheaper. Yes there are many that buy in at $40 MSRP without knowing better and feel dubbed once they do. It's a huge problem with FFG's LCG that I am glad they fixed. This new Marvel game is actually going to be a much cheaper buy in and more in line with what a game that is just a stack of cards should cost.

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10 hours ago, Mep said:

Yes there are many that buy in at $40 MSRP without knowing better and feel dubbed once they do.

Duped about what? Having a perfectly playable game?

I dislike the fact that people are being told they have an incomplete game if they only own a single core set

I apologise for maybe ranting, but these discussions always get on my cheeks 😅

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Posted (edited)

What Mep describes is the reality of the situation though.  We saw it constantly when AH first came out.  The Marvel Champ's system is just more honest and less likely to breed resentment from new players.  The people who are usually left feeling this way are the casuals.  The people that low price was targeting in the first place.  They most likely just picked up the core set because it looked neat and expected a full game in there.  While there is a full game it's clear once you get to deck building that the experience was really tailored to that two core experience.  To some that will feel like a snare trap.

To me and other LCG die hard players it was a straight reduction in my costs since I was always buying 2x AH core sets for $80s.  Now I only need to buy 1 Marvel Champs core set for $60.    I assume they are banking on Marvel's wider appeal to make up that lost revenue.  Though also they need to ship less (but more expensive) product to service the same customer base, which might be an economic consideration in their favor.

With Marvel Champs they did another trade off.  They potentially took a hit by raising the price per unit to what the core sets probably should cost.  That means some casuals will be turned away by the price, but at the same time they may turn less people away from LCGs in the future by not giving them a potentially negative experience up front.  So it's trading an economy of units shipped versus customers retained.  I hope it works out for them.  It seems like a more far-sighted strategy.

Edited by phillos

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So now FFG was being dishonest? Like mwmcintyre said, if you wanted to know what was in the box, you could easily find it, even the so-called “casuals”

Also, I don’t think you can assume a change in policy from FFG based on only 1 product. For all we know, this was something that Marvel requested/demanded

I’m a LCG fanboy, so I will probably end up buying Marvel, but I wished the price was just a little bit more friendly

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I look at the old "multiple core" system as safe buy ins to the game.  $40 is an easier initial investment than $80.  and ffg probably needs to charge around $80 to make a profit printing a full core playset.  its a business after all.  

I don't know much about Marvel Champions yet, but i am concerned, especially if the card pool is small.  There might be little to no customizability in the decks, and thats the one thing i enjoy in card games. its very possible, with the success of keyforge, ffg might be looking at card games that don't require deckbuilding because they fit the casual player.  so atm, i don't know if Marvel Champions will be for me.  

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, cheapmate said:

So now FFG was being dishonest? Like mwmcintyre said, if you wanted to know what was in the box, you could easily find it, even the so-called “casuals”

Also, I don’t think you can assume a change in policy from FFG based on only 1 product. For all we know, this was something that Marvel requested/demanded

I’m a LCG fanboy, so I will probably end up buying Marvel, but I wished the price was just a little bit more friendly

The casuals described in this scenario definitely exist.  We see them posting on BGG all the time asking what's up with the two core set thing for AH:TCG.  The issue is a reality, and often times they get all bent out of shape about it.  We are all super exited about FFG products and therefore are well informed, but that's not the vast majority of the game buying public.  These sorts of games appeal to co-op gamers and those gamers don't necessarily come from a CCG or LCG background.  The idea of buying redundant products isn't exactly ubiquitous in the gaming industry.  I think it's a bit unfair to say someone should have done their homework first and since they didn't you are not sympathetic.  It's certainly a bad way to welcome someone into a hobby game.

I sincerely doubt Marvel or Disney cared considering they license plenty of mobile games with predatory pricing schemes like Contest of Champions.  Even using the old distribution system LCGs are saintly compared to the mobile gaming market.  LCGs (Aside from the core set issue) are just an expandable board game with set monthly releases.  I think this was a deliberate move on FFG's part to make Champions more of a boxed game like purchase since it will have a very wide appeal potentially.  On BGG we see sometimes daily threads opening up about numbers of core sets required, pack buying order, how to get around deck building etc.  This system potentially side steps a lot of that.

Edited by phillos

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My .02 cents is this: I don't have enough money to really invest in two core sets. I did buy one, and I have a friend who is seriously invested in the game and he makes decks for us to play. But I had so much fun I bought my own set- and that's going to unfortunately be it, despite needing multiple copies of some cards to round out my decks. I am more than happy to purchase the other products in the line as they come out, though going back through will be way too much of a financial burden. I would even be willing to spend half the amount on a set that offered to round out necessary cards and possibly had a new stand-alone campaign session.

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By just looking at the box it is not intuitive that you'll need 2 cores for a full play set of cards. Actually AH is a little more forward about one core being 2 player and 2 cores being 4 players. This isn't the case with some other LCGs.

FFG seems to have designed the Marvel game to be very accessible. Just buy one core and buy which ever expansion packs interest the player. The buy in of the older LCGs were so large they simply couldn't attract new players after several years running. Even AH has $120 buy in for a full story arc, although I think the AH crowd really likes the long campaign style rather than the one and done that Marvel is doing.

FFG is changing their business practices that many were put off on. Their flag ship game X-Wing got a lot of complaints about having to buy ships one wouldn't normally want to play just to have an upgrade card. They changed that policy in Legion and are even not offering upgrade packs that just contain cards. As to the price point. well those X-Wing ships went up 33% from $15 to $20. With tariffs and increase in minimum wages across the US the inflation will push those $40 MSRP items to $60. Death, Taxes and Inflation.

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On 8/13/2019 at 10:04 AM, Mep said:

to $20. With tariffs and increase in minimum wages across the US the inflation will push those $40 MSRP items to $60. Death, Taxes and Inflation.

This utterly fails even the most basic math :(  Hyperbole FTW!

Ignorant people who don't do their homework are going to be upset.  It won't be any different with MC.  The same people who'll gripe about how you have to buy two cores for most of the LCGs will gripe about how there's no customizability in the core game - and from what I understand, there won't be much.  I suspect we'll also get a lot of crying about how $60 is too high a price point for a solo player.  We'll get a new round of crying about how bad the cores are, and while it will be a new flavor it won't be any less.

It's also a bit of unwarranted triumphalism to declare FFG finally listened on the pack structure.  I'm happy to see it - split player/encounter packs is something I've wanted for a long time - but I think the motivation there is clear, and it has nothing to do with what we wanted.  Marvel heroes have much bigger individual name recognition.  You can sell a separate Captain America pack WAAAY better than you can sell a separate Jenny Barnes pack.  But even there, we'll see the inevitable whining about how slowly the hero card pool grows because the split means we only get hero packs 2 of 3 releases.

People always want the other side of whatever hill you put in front of them.

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Yes, the grass is always greener. I am sure in 10 years they will have some new strategy to confront all the criticism. Until then, they are confronting the current criticism. Time will tell how successful it is.

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