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The Grand Falloon

Trying to fix Rising Cut

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   Okay, if you're one of the folks slogging through all 6 pages of the Dueling Mechanics thread, one of the things that comes up is that Iaijutsu Cut: Rising Blade is not that great in a duel.  Yes, drawing and striking as a single action is pretty handy, so if you're a Rank 1 Kakita or Mirumoto, it can definitely help you out.  However, because of the way Finishing Blow works, most of Rising Blade's nifty ability just doesn't apply.  If I were building any character trained in Iaijutsu, I would take Crossing Blade every single time.  The TN is lower, the damage is higher, and it can strike at spear range.  It seems pretty clear to me that Rising Blade is supposed to be the "win the duel" technique, but it's not quite there.

   So how about this: we tweak Finishing Blow.  It still triggers the same, but instead of inflicting a Critical Strike, the Damage and Deadliness of the weapon are doubled.  Duels to Incapacitation would probably be ended right then and there, and a lot fewer sparring bouts would end up with one duelist being permanently maimed by a boken.  And the whole "your target cannot defend against this damage if they are compromised" issue suddenly becomes very important.

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I think you could fix it solely by allowing the user to spend 2 opportunity to crit with it, making it a very dangerous ability, but one you still have to dance around Earth stance to use. With it, a rank 2 Kakita can pull a 7 deadliness crit out of thin air. Leave Crossing Cut the way it is - good damage and the range boost already pull weight as a decent technique outside duels.

With Crossing Cut, its stated that range is supposed to be kinda moot in duels. This leads me to believe that the Iaido techniques were balanced more toward how they can be used outside duels.

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2 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I think you could fix it solely by allowing the user to spend 2 opportunity to crit with it, making it a very dangerous ability, but one you still have to dance around Earth stance to use. With it, a rank 2 Kakita can pull a 7 deadliness crit out of thin air. Leave Crossing Cut the way it is - good damage and the range boost already pull weight as a decent technique outside duels.

With Crossing Cut, its stated that range is supposed to be kinda moot in duels. This leads me to believe that the Iaido techniques were balanced more toward how they can be used outside duels.

thats exactly the fix i have in my work in progress REWORK DOCUMENT.

i just added "2opp: critical strike = to deadliness of the weapon" to rising cut :)

i still left that if you attack a compromised opponent you auto crit, because i feel you can use it if you start a duel with somebody already compromised. which is very Crane like.

 

that time. we agree.

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its not duel-centric tech. its for slicing up people compromised people in earth stance during skirmishes. tons of people are within 2 fire opp to be compromised, which is first or second turn of skirmish.
for duels, you got the crossing cut, which costs only 3 xp and is still entire rank early for kakita

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honestly...

adding that rising cut can crit on 2opp... is fair enough. not OP at all. and simply more fun/thematic and makes it at least comparable to crossing cut in a duel (a more high risk, high reward option). because you need to be pretty much Kakita himself to be able to pull off TN3 + 2opp all the time. it isn't easy. it is thematic, the mastery of the iaijutsu, of the one-strike. and a worst duelist would definitely need to use a few round of centering or (insert ways to be able to use opportunities without having to strike) to pull it off.

and, you'll still be able to slice up compromised people on the battlefield with your sheated wakisashi.

 

to me... it needs to be a "duel centric tech" @WHW so we'll have to agree on our disagreement.

 

regarding: (insert ways to be able to use opportunities [do a check] without having to strike)

is what duel mechanic main problem is at the moment, according to me. but lets not port the "other" thread over here :D

Edited by Avatar111

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It was a duel centric tech in beta - by virtue of always critting - and honestly, it dumbed down the first strike/first blood duels to rocket tag initiative lottery. I don't miss it at all, and im saying it as my groups primary dueling monkey. But im overall happy that duels are more than a single turn of decision points - if I wanted that, there is one roll dueling sidebar.

As for exploding poor sods - dunno if sarcasm, but especially when wargear is involved and characters enter the scene with preexisting strife (which will probably be pretty common for skirmishes that dont interrupt relaxing scene), you can open the fight with 3 strife in initiative and further 3 strife on the Rising Cut itself. Thats 6 Strife, which means that unless your GM is ignoring the sidebar about NPCs observing and respecting Strife rules like PCs, you get to compromise within 6 of their Composure limit. Which is...pretty much anyone with less than 12 composure. It's also not like your character is going to routinely participate in iai duels at rank 1 anyway, simply because everybody else gets iai at rank2. So from practical standpoint, starting techniques are more concerned about general skirmish and maybe warriors duels, rather than "high art" dueling that doesn't come online until rank 2 anyway.

 

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I understand how amazingly powerful it is against compromised targets, but you won't often have your weapon sheathed in a skirmish situation. It's only useful if someone starts a combat compromised, as, during duels, your final strike action is better.

The only effective usage I could imagine is using water stance to re-sheath your weapon every round after you strike - which would be a funny way to get around snaring weapons.

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18 minutes ago, WHW said:

It was a duel centric tech in beta - by virtue of always critting - and honestly, it dumbed down the first strike/first blood duels to rocket tag initiative lottery. I don't miss it at all, and im saying it as my groups primary dueling monkey. But im overall happy that duels are more than a single turn of decision points - if I wanted that, there is one roll dueling sidebar.

by giving it the option to crit by spending 2 opportunities... on top of being a TN3 technique... (and if the opponent is in air stance its really hard to pull of, and if hes in earth stance he totally nerfed rising cut).

is miles away from "virtue of always critting"..

 

and,

you don't want duel to be 1 turn, but you want the staredown bidding to be very important each round. important enough so that you are willing to bid almost all your composure to get the opportunity to strike first, but that if you win the initiative, and do that first strike and roll too many strife on it... they resolve before your hit as per the rule, so...hopefully you still had some composure left, because the opponent gets an interrupt finishing blow.

(and then we can go on and on, the opponent gets the finishing blow, so now it is possible he himself become compromised during his finishing blow and boom, you get a finishing blow interrupting his!)

thats what i call. a samurai duel my friend.

warning; i definitely need to double check to make sure exactly hos everything is resolved in a check. i have a feeling it is strife first, then opportunity, then successes. but i need to double check before going any further.

Edited by Avatar111

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5 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I understand how amazingly powerful it is against compromised targets, but you won't often have your weapon sheathed in a skirmish situation. It's only useful if someone starts a combat compromised, as, during duels, your final strike action is better.

The only effective usage I could imagine is using water stance to re-sheath your weapon every round after you strike - which would be a funny way to get around snaring weapons.

thats why you have your always sheated wakisashi :D so on your turn you 1hand grip your katana and then rising cut with the wakisashi (ok ok.. powergaming right here).

 

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5 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

thats why you have your always sheated wakisashi :D so on your turn you 1hand grip your katana and then rising cut with the wakisashi (ok ok.. powergaming right here).

 

I believe that maneuver is used at least once in a Kurasawa film. Maybe one of the Musashi triology.

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2 hours ago, ExplodingJoe said:

but you won't often have your weapon sheathed in a skirmish situation.

I mean, sure you will. Depending on the conflict and the kit you have, you might easily start with a spear or bow out for range, or maybe you've been attacked in an unexpected situation and don't have your weapons out. A skirmish is basically any informal dust-up there's all kinds of scenarios where you want to ready a weapon and strike at the same time. Sure, you can only do it maybe once or twice, but that first guy or two could be very important.

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21 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

I mean, sure you will. Depending on the conflict and the kit you have, you might easily start with a spear or bow out for range, or maybe you've been attacked in an unexpected situation and don't have your weapons out. A skirmish is basically any informal dust-up there's all kinds of scenarios where you want to ready a weapon and strike at the same time. Sure, you can only do it maybe once or twice, but that first guy or two could be very important.

I really need to do the equipment guide thread I've been considering, because all of the discussion only using weapons/techniques in a vacuum is really missing most of what you mentioned.

Edited by Ultimatecalibur

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6 hours ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I understand how amazingly powerful it is against compromised targets, but you won't often have your weapon sheathed in a skirmish situation.

I'd say re-sheathing your katana for a big strike in a skirmish is a very Kakita thing to do!

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6 hours ago, ExplodingJoe said:

The only effective usage I could imagine is using water stance to re-sheath your weapon every round after you strike - which would be a funny way to get around snaring weapons.

Ah yes. I believe this is referred to as the "John Leguizamo in Romeo and Juliet" approach.

It may be that I was reading the intent of the Kata wrong.  My impression was that Rising Blade was meant to be the dueling technique, and Crossing Blade was the skirmish technique, and that they had made a critical mistake with Finishing Blow becoming redundant with Rising Blade.  But to follow WHW's line of reasoning, Crossing Blade would be the dueling technique, and Rising Blade is the "talk trash until your enemy reaches for his steel, and then cut him down like lightning" technique.

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7 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

and that they had made a critical mistake with Finishing Blow becoming redundant with Rising Blade.

that, they did. but in that other thread a nutcase kid @AK_Aramis doesn't seem to get it. maybe its one of the designer :D

ok ok bad joke...

Edited by Avatar111

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1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

that, they did. but in that other thread a nutcase kid @AK_Aramis doesn't seem to get it. maybe its one of the designer :D

ok ok bad joke...

No, you fail to understand the term "cannot defend" in Rising cut. Translating it into simpler language, "If the target is compromised, you do a crit instead"

 

see the citations (and quotes) in the other thread. (Page 268, defending against damage, and 179, Rising cut)

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21 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

No, you fail to understand the term "cannot defend" in Rising cut. Translating it into simpler language, "If the target is compromised, you do a crit instead"

Okay... two situations...

Situation #1: Not a Duel (Skirmish)

Compromised Target? Do a Critical Strike (Severity = 5) using Rising Cut.

Pg 179: "...If you succeed, you deal physical damage to the target equal to the weapon's deadliness. Your target cannot defend against this damage if they are Compromised."

So basically, if they aren't Compromised, this damage can be defended against by taking Fatigue. But if they are Compromised, it is a Critical Strike.

Situation #2: Duel

Compromised Target? Do a Critical Strike (Severity = 10) using Finishing Blow.

Pg 259: "The first time their opponent becomes Compromised or unmasks during a duel, a character may immediately execute a finishing blow. This is a special action that can be performed out of turn... If the character executing a finishing blow succeeds, instead of dealing damage, the finishing blow inflicts a critical strike with severity equal to two times the deadliness of the weapon or Attack action used, plus the attacker's bonus successes..."

Summary:

Dueling... special Finishing Blow rules... attack using Rising Cut (TN3), Crossing Blade (TN2) or Water Stance (TN2)... doesn't matter. Duels have special rules where Compromised targets immediately take damage as Critical Strikes... with even MORE severity than normal.

The argument is that, in a duel, Rising Cut is inferior to Crossing Blade, since the default mechanic of Finishing Blows already offers a better bonus than the Rising Cut  kata.

Edited by Shinjo Koetsu
Fixing my grammar.

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Further evidence that 'Crossing Blade' is the 'dueling technique' is that it is terrible in a skirmish. The most common bushi armor has the Cumbersome quality, so will increase the TN of Crossing Blade (a movement action) to 4 

 

Edit: Unless I have the TNs on the Iaijutsu kata mixed up, which is possible

Edited by Amanda the Panda

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9 minutes ago, Amanda the Panda said:

Further evidence that 'Crossing Blade' is the 'dueling technique' is that it is terrible in a skirmish. The most common bushi armor has the Cumbersome quality, so will increase the TN of Crossing Blade (a movement action) to 4 

 

Edit: Unless I have the TNs on the Iaijutsu kata mixed up, which is possible

Rising Cut is TN3, while Crossing Blade is TN2... or TN3 if wearing Armor that is Cumbersome.

Good catch on this! I didn't even make that connection.

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2 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

that, they did. but in that other thread a nutcase kid @AK_Aramis doesn't seem to get it. maybe its one of the designer :D

ok ok bad joke...

   Dude.  You have got to understand that you are pissing a lot of people off here. You are constantly being rude, snide, condescending, and outright insulting to both the designers and the community.  Even when you're right about a rules clarification (which is often), nobody wants to back you up because you're a jerk about it.

   We've all done it.  Search through my post history enough and you'll find examples of me being snotty to someone.  But your account is three months old and you're belittling people who have been here for the better part of a decade.  There is no other "Avatar111" that people have gotten to know.  And the usual wisdom of "ignore the troll" doesn't work, because you're all over every thread related to this game.

   You are obviously really into this game, and that is great. You obviously have picked up on a lot of the weird little rules nuances that have some other folks confused. That's also great.  I disagree with a lot of your conclusions, and I look forward to arguing about them with you, but that won't happen with the attitude that you're bringing to these forums.

   There are a few possible outcomes if you continue treating the people here like you have been.  The first is that a moderator bans your account.  Which is a hassle, but we all know you'll be back as Avatar112.  And honestly, I don't know of anyone being banned here.

   The second is that your enthusiasm wanes and you're no longer taking up half the posts in every thread.  This will make you easy enough for everyone to ignore.

   The third is that people stop coming here.  And you need to understand that this is a very real possibility.  An internet forum is a niche venue for a small niche game in a small niche hobby.  This is a fragile ecosystem that will wither and die in a toxic environment.

   There is a fourth possibility, of course, but it relies entirely on you: dial it down.  Stop insulting people and trying to make it okay with a stupid emoji.  Stop belittling people when their understanding of the rules is off.  And by Tyr's bloody stump, stop telling people to "get good."

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47 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

   Dude.  You have got to understand that you are pissing a lot of people off here. You are constantly being rude, snide, condescending, and outright insulting to both the designers and the community.  Even when you're right about a rules clarification (which is often), nobody wants to back you up because you're a jerk about it.

   We've all done it.  Search through my post history enough and you'll find examples of me being snotty to someone.  But your account is three months old and you're belittling people who have been here for the better part of a decade.  There is no other "Avatar111" that people have gotten to know.  And the usual wisdom of "ignore the troll" doesn't work, because you're all over every thread related to this game.

   You are obviously really into this game, and that is great. You obviously have picked up on a lot of the weird little rules nuances that have some other folks confused. That's also great.  I disagree with a lot of your conclusions, and I look forward to arguing about them with you, but that won't happen with the attitude that you're bringing to these forums.

   There are a few possible outcomes if you continue treating the people here like you have been.  The first is that a moderator bans your account.  Which is a hassle, but we all know you'll be back as Avatar112.  And honestly, I don't know of anyone being banned here.

   The second is that your enthusiasm wanes and you're no longer taking up half the posts in every thread.  This will make you easy enough for everyone to ignore.

   The third is that people stop coming here.  And you need to understand that this is a very real possibility.  An internet forum is a niche venue for a small niche game in a small niche hobby.  This is a fragile ecosystem that will wither and die in a toxic environment.

   There is a fourth possibility, of course, but it relies entirely on you: dial it down.  Stop insulting people and trying to make it okay with a stupid emoji.  Stop belittling people when their understanding of the rules is off.  And by Tyr's bloody stump, stop telling people to "get good."

There's a fifth possibility.  If you hover over a user's avatar picture, a box will eventually pop up.  This includes various bits f info, as well as a button for "ignore user".  Using this, you can get the forum to collapse all of the posts of a user to a single line saying "You've chosen to ignore posts by..."  I have found that lowers my blood pressure in the past for people like DESGOSTO and kempy.

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I think the issue is that AK thinks that being compromised means you deal a crit INSTEAD of damage, which isn't the case. You ALWAYS deal damage (except with Finishing Blows). It's just that "damage" isn't a thing that sticks to characters. Characters TAKE damage, but they never HAVE it; unlike D&D, where in some editions you could say "my character has X damage", this is never true in 55R.

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6 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

   Dude.  You have got to understand that you are pissing a lot of people off here. You are constantly being rude, snide, condescending, and outright insulting to both the designers and the community.  Even when you're right about a rules clarification (which is often), nobody wants to back you up because you're a jerk about it.

   We've all done it.  Search through my post history enough and you'll find examples of me being snotty to someone.  But your account is three months old and you're belittling people who have been here for the better part of a decade.  There is no other "Avatar111" that people have gotten to know.  And the usual wisdom of "ignore the troll" doesn't work, because you're all over every thread related to this game.

   You are obviously really into this game, and that is great. You obviously have picked up on a lot of the weird little rules nuances that have some other folks confused. That's also great.  I disagree with a lot of your conclusions, and I look forward to arguing about them with you, but that won't happen with the attitude that you're bringing to these forums.

   There are a few possible outcomes if you continue treating the people here like you have been.  The first is that a moderator bans your account.  Which is a hassle, but we all know you'll be back as Avatar112.  And honestly, I don't know of anyone being banned here.

   The second is that your enthusiasm wanes and you're no longer taking up half the posts in every thread.  This will make you easy enough for everyone to ignore.

   The third is that people stop coming here.  And you need to understand that this is a very real possibility.  An internet forum is a niche venue for a small niche game in a small niche hobby.  This is a fragile ecosystem that will wither and die in a toxic environment.

   There is a fourth possibility, of course, but it relies entirely on you: dial it down.  Stop insulting people and trying to make it okay with a stupid emoji.  Stop belittling people when their understanding of the rules is off.  And by Tyr's bloody stump, stop telling people to "get good."

i'm going a bit Mantis about all this, true. Its just that when you debate mechanical rules/system, you should be able to understand the basis of them, especially after a few reads. I have a hard time dealing with somebody who basically counter argue using wrong information like 5 times in a row.

i'm not going into any lore/narrative threads. not my thing. people who don't like crunch should probably avoid discussions about... crunch. if you start using "narrative" and "history" as an excuse for the rules for example, you are clearly not in the right discussion. but, if i check the most popular threads, the threads with most views... it is ALL mechanical/crunch threads. So this ecosystem is in large part alive due to that.

i don't have a lot of "friends" here, because they simply can't handle it. but a few understand my style, and our discussions are the best, our discussion about mechanical rules.

i will still be careful with the more fragile part of this ecosystem. but they should also be careful coming close to a fire.

apologies, i understand your reason for wanting a softer behavior, i think i get what you mean. i probably have a very wrong picture of the general type of people who frequent these forums. and i am walking on eggs a bit too much. i will be careful.

Edited by Avatar111

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5 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

There's a fifth possibility.  If you hover over a user's avatar picture, a box will eventually pop up.  This includes various bits f info, as well as a button for "ignore user".  Using this, you can get the forum to collapse all of the posts of a user to a single line saying "You've chosen to ignore posts by..."   I have found that lowers my blood pressure.

also, i am perfectly fine with that. it should be in my signature.

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