jam on a ship with multiple green tokens/ target locks

[predigerw 0]

As I understand, the owner of the jamming ship gets to choose if he wants target locks or green tokens to be discarded.

but who decides which target lock/green token is to be discarded in case of multiple tokens (suppose evade and focus) o tlocks on different ships? the jamming player or the owner of the jammed ship? the wording on the rules reference is quite ambiguous on it (at least as I see it, and I've seen different oppinions on it).

Thanks! 

[shaunmerritt 196]

In the Rule Reference....  "the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks."  

It is a big vague in the case of what to do when the ship has multiple locks, but I personally  believe you choose which lock. You are jamming with a purpose to break said lock.  

[thespaceinvader 17,375]

The person applying the token chooses which token to remove f there are multiple.

[jftanner 148]

I thought this was really clearly worded but, looking at the rules now, I'm not so sure.

Here's what the rules say:
"When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks."

I see this as being read one of two ways:

• The "attacker" decides between "remove a green token" and "break a lock". The "defender" then performs the requested action, and decides which specific token/lock to lose.
• The "attacker" decides between "remove a [specific] green token" and "break a [specific] lock". The defender doesn't get to choose at all.

Unfortunately, I see both options as equally viable. It comes down to whether or not "one" in the sentence refers to a specific token/lock, or if it refers to any general token/lock.

[MockingBird ME 61]

25 minutes ago, jftanner said:

"When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks."

As it does not specify that the jammed ship then chooses which to remove I think this rule is that the jamming player chooses a specific green token or lock to be removed but it is worded poorly. 

[jftanner 148]

1 minute ago, MockingBird ME said:

As it does not specify that the jammed ship then chooses which to remove I think this rule is that the jamming player chooses a specific green token or lock to be removed but it is worded poorly. 

I would tend to agree. I think the other side of the argument has merit, still, because it's so poorly worded.

[MockingBird ME 61]

1 minute ago, jftanner said:

I would tend to agree. I think the other side of the argument has merit, still, because it's so poorly worded.

I could see it but unless there is a rule elsewhere that allows a player to choose which token is removed when told to remove one of them I don't think it has as much merit. Is there such a rule statement that I've just missed? 

[sharrrp 438]

It could be worded more explicitly but the fact the jamming player gets to make a choice tells me they should choose all the way down.

It says choose to remove "a green token" or "a lock", they could have said something like "choose one of the ships green tokens or locks and the ship removes it" to avoid ambiguity but the phrasing still supports it being used that way and absent a more explicit ruling to the contraray that seems the obvious intent.

Likewise if they meant the ship being jammed to make the choice between multiple green tokens they could have said "the jammer chooses either green tokens or locks and then the jammed ship chooses one of that type to remove" they didn't write it that way either.

Edited October 24, 2018 by sharrrp

[Hiemfire 5,241]

You=ship attacking/jamming. Defending ship = ship being attacked.

Defending ship is told which type of token to remove, lock or green specified, then if a green token is the type selected the defender removes a green token. The attacker only gets to specify Lock or green, the defender can pick which green token if that is what the attacker chooses. Not really that ambiguous. In allot of cases there will be only one token type, focus or evade, to remove, but in those cases where there is both a focus and an evade it is the defender's choice.

[Icelom 3,318]

9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You=ship attacking/jamming. Defending ship = ship being attacked.

Defending ship is told which type of token to remove, lock or green specified, then if a green token is the type selected the defender removes a green token. The attacker only gets to specify Lock or green, the defender can pick which green token if that is what the attacker chooses. Not really that ambiguous. In allot of cases there will be only one token type, focus or evade, to remove, but in those cases where there is both a focus and an evade it is the defender's choice.

I think nearly everyone in this thread interpreted differently then you.

So pretty ambiguous.

[jftanner 148]

Yep. @Hiemfire interpreted it as option 1 from my earlier response, @MockingBird ME, @sharrrp, and @Icelom all went with option 2.

I think that's evidence enough that it's ambiguous.

[player2072913 654]

I've always been playing it as option one! But I see now why it's ambiguous. Put me in as another vote for one

[PanchoX1 1,284]

20 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

You=ship attacking/jamming. Defending ship = ship being attacked.

Defending ship is told which type of token to remove, lock or green specified, then if a green token is the type selected the defender removes a green token. The attacker only gets to specify Lock or green, the defender can pick which green token if that is what the attacker chooses. Not really that ambiguous. In allot of cases there will be only one token type, focus or evade, to remove, but in those cases where there is both a focus and an evade it is the defender's choice.

^This. do what is says, don't do what it doesn't say. "When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks." it says nothing else.

Granted, there may have been further intent (as shaunMerrit pointed out with going for a specific lock, but unlikely in my opinion since very few ships can have more that one) but until there is a clarification of doing more, there is no reason to go beyond what the rule says to do.

[Icelom 3,318]

1 hour ago, PanchoX1 said:

^This. do what is says, don't do what it doesn't say. "When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks." it says nothing else.

Granted, there may have been further intent (as shaunMerrit pointed out with going for a specific lock, but unlikely in my opinion since very few ships can have more that one) but until there is a clarification of doing more, there is no reason to go beyond what the rule says to do.

you may be right. 

Its just very clunky wording, could have easily been cleared up.

 

[jftanner 148]

Well, that brings it to roughly 50/50 on rules interpretations. Looks like yet another thing that needs @OfficialRules.

[Hiemfire 5,241]

31 minutes ago, jftanner said:

Well, that brings it to roughly 50/50 on rules interpretations. Looks like yet another thing that needs @OfficialRules.

That part is kind of a given.

[Maui. 2,318]

2 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

^This. do what is says, don't do what it doesn't say. "When a ship becomes jammed, the player whose effect caused the ship to gain the jam token chooses for the ship to either remove one of its green tokens or break one of its locks." it says nothing else.

Granted, there may have been further intent (as shaunMerrit pointed out with going for a specific lock, but unlikely in my opinion since very few ships can have more that one) but until there is a clarification of doing more, there is no reason to go beyond what the rule says to do.

The Jam rule is what is called a "syntactic ambiguity." The sentence could be interpreted two different ways, and both interpretations are entirely grammatically correct. Reading through it, I don't think there's any way to determine from context which interpretation was intended.

[Quarrel 629]

On 10/24/2018 at 7:52 AM, jftanner said:

I see this as being read one of two ways:

• The "attacker" decides between "remove a green token" and "break a lock". The "defender" then performs the requested action, and decides which specific token/lock to lose.
• The "attacker" decides between "remove a [specific] green token" and "break a [specific] lock". The defender doesn't get to choose at all.

Irrespective of which reading fits the grammar more naturally, IMHO option #1 is just a needlessly complex and dumb way for it to work.

[jftanner 148]

 

4 hours ago, nexttwelveexits said:

The Jam rule is what is called a "syntactic ambiguity." The sentence could be interpreted two different ways, and both interpretations are entirely grammatically correct.

And it's just a basic rule, too. Not even an edge case between multiple rules interacting. That makes it even more frustrating.

3 hours ago, Quarrel said:

Irrespective of which reading fits the grammar more naturally, IMHO option #1 is just a needlessly complex and dumb way for it to work.

I tend to agree. I think it's intended to have you choose a token or a target lock. But, the way it's worded, it could go either way. So, Rules-as-Written... I dunno?

[MockingBird ME 61]

14 hours ago, nexttwelveexits said:

This. do what is says, don't do what it doesn't say.

That's the thing with ambiguous wording though; we all think we're doing it what says and not doing what it doesn't say. 

[Maui. 2,318]

2 minutes ago, MockingBird ME said:

That's the thing with ambiguous wording though; we all think we're doing it what says and not doing what it doesn't say. 

That's... precisely my point?

[jftanner 148]

4 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

That's... precisely my point?

The original quote is actually from @PanchoX1. I think @MockingBird ME quoted your quote.

[MockingBird ME 61]

 

58 minutes ago, jftanner said:

The original quote is actually from @PanchoX1. I think @MockingBird ME quoted your quote.

Oops, I totally did; my bad. 

[RikuM 23]

This was the best topic I could find concerning the discussion I had last game night. What happens, when the ship being jammed has one type of token but the jammer chooses another type of token? Reading the rules, an effect was   not resolved so the ship remains jammed, but a jammed ship is a ship with a jam token and no green tokens or locks.

A specific example of this would be a ship with a lock on a rock getting jammed before it is activated.

FWIW, my personal opinions re: green tokens is #1 and re: this question is jam is ineffective, but I understand both interpretations in both cases.

[thespaceinvader 17,375]

If they choose at type the jammed ship doesn't have, it's now Jammed and has a green token (or lock) and so the Jammed condition's effect kicks in and demands that token's removal.