Full release striking as wind

[Moderately 7]

3 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I've never played statistics in games. It's a gambler's trap. The ability to bank a die for my next roll will always be valuable to me, since I know as a fact there will always be time when I roll one good die and nothing else, and I may want to spend opp to save it for later. If you don't, feel free to focus on other rings.

"Never played statistics" ah so you're gambling the gm will compensate for you not considering mean, variance, and efficiency. 

Sorry, doing math like this is something most people don't bother with. Just don't take a massive gamble (that a consistently weaker result is better than more reliable options because its variance seems lower) then call the alternative a gambler's trap. Lots of people shoot themselves in the foot trying to eliminate random chance, and ironically make it take an even luckier result for them to succeed.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

I am the GM.

[Moderately 7]

Ah, so petty maths are beneath your godhood. Carry on the hard work explosion bird.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

Whatever you say, mate. No one thinks your opinion is worthless.

[Avatar111 553]

Thing is, nothing is never going to be 100% balanced, but right now some stuff is too weak and/or too strong. We are trying to see how to fix some blatant mechanical issues.

Sure, some gamers like you don't care about numbers, and honestly it is fine! But I don't know why you even come in that discussion though...

[Daeglan 5,950]

21 hours ago, Myrion said:

Yeah, you can't use the dice that you reserve - they become dropped dice.

It is not very good, unless you roll way better than you need to, I think. 

think of it as a feint. You are taking successes from the first roll and shifting them to a second roll. So if you get 2 successes on the first roll. y then shift them to a second roll where you also roll 2 successes. so now you have 4 successes. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Daeglan

[JBento 229]

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

think of it as a feint. You are taking successes from the first roll and shifting them to a second roll. So if you get 2 successes on the first roll. y then shift them to a second roll where you also roll 2 successes. so now you have 4 successes. 

Eeeeh, the fact you roll less dice on the second check screws everything up.

[Daeglan 5,950]

4 minutes ago, JBento said:

Eeeeh, the fact you roll less dice on the second check screws everything up.

I dont think you roll less dice. What i see is you roll normal drop the number of dice and swap in the previous roll banked dice. So you drop the dice you dont want and replace them with the dice you banked.

 

[JBento 229]

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

I dont think you roll less dice. What i see is you roll normal drop the number of dice and swap in the previous roll banked dice. So you drop the dice you dont want and replace them with the dice you banked.

 

You think wrong. The text is very clear that you roll fewer dice. It literally says "you roll fewer dice". I mean, it'd certainly make the technique better, perhaps to the point I'd consider buying it, but that's very explicitly not what it does.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

27 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Thing is, nothing is never going to be 100% balanced, but right now some stuff is too weak and/or too strong. We are trying to see how to fix some blatant mechanical issues.

Sure, some gamers like you don't care about numbers, and honestly it is fine! But I don't know why you even come in that discussion though...

Because the initial question was "why would you want to save a die for next turn, when the system rewards immediate action?" and the answer is "because you'll never always roll well enough to ensure immediate success, but you may want the option to drop a Success + Opp die and use it with a better roll". The argument posed against that has boiled down to "you should just re-roll the die and try to get the same thing".

2 minutes ago, JBento said:

Eeeeh, the fact you roll less dice on the second check screws everything up.

You roll less dice, because one is set to what is likely the best outcome. Your pool stays the same, it's just less random. A pool of 3 ring + 3 skill, remains 3 ring + 3 skill, but you only roll 5 and the 6th is preset to your saved outcome.

[Ultimatecalibur 597]

1 hour ago, ExplodingJoe said:

This looks like a good edition to the errata thread. They reference it as "3xp unless otherwise noted in the technique" but I didn't see any techniques noted with XP costs in the book. That leads me to believe this note was added for an edit that was forgotten before release. The original intent was that opportunity techs would be cheaper than action techs, because they're less powerful and control less of the narrative.

Or it is a case of future proofing because they already came up with the idea that different techniques could cost different amounts of XP.

[JBento 229]

But I'm already paying one success (or, at best, one exploding success) (which, granted, might not make any difference) and one Opp. AND I'm paying 3 XP for the privilege. I could be doing VERY GOOD stuff with that Opp NOW, instead of hoping that I don't become knocked out, compromised, or, in anything but ranged, heavens forbid the enemies move away to hit somebody else (who might be easier to hit because I'm necessarily in Air Stance).

I mean, obviously it's better to have the option to do it than not, but I could be putting those 3 XP to better use.

Edited October 24, 2018 by JBento

[Shosur0 73]

Was the old version (increasing your TN) too overpowered?

I mean, with Air 2 (average value) we are talking about keeping 2 dice. So you kinda have to choose between striking your opponent or keeping opportunities to increase your TN. (explosive successes aside). With Air 3 or more it gets a lot better ofc, but then, i imagine that damage to rings (crits) makes staying all the time in the same stance an unrealistic expectation. Also it only works against the first attack, so its nice in 1vs1 but smart enemies or groups of goons can really ignore it safely.

Im asking because I also think the definitive version looks kinda weak. May need some tweaking.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

3 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

Was the old version (increasing your TN) too overpowered?

I mean, with Air 2 (average value) we are talking about keeping 2 dice. So you kinda have to choose between striking your opponent or keeping opportunities to increase your TN. (explosive successes aside). With Air 3 or more it gets a lot better ofc, but then, i imagine that damage to rings (crits) makes staying all the time in the same stance an unrealistic expectation. Also it only works against the first attack, so its nice in 1vs1 but smart enemies or groups of goons can really ignore it safely.

Im asking because I also think the definitive version looks kinda weak. May need some tweaking.

I get the feeling that striking as air was intended to be duel centric, and, as a rule with most dueling abilities, useless in games that don't have a fair number of them. Playing a Kakita is cool, but I don't see the benefit of Striking as Fire and the Kakita school ability is also useless fighting groups of henchmen that auto-KO when fatigue = endurance.

14 minutes ago, JBento said:

But I'm already paying one success (or, at best, one exploding success) (which, granted, might not make any difference) and one Opp. AND I'm paying 3 XP for the privilege. I could be doing VERY GOOD stuff with that Opp NOW, instead of hoping that I don't become knocked out, compromised, or, in anything but ranged, heavens forbid the enemies move away to hit somebody else (who might be easier to hit because I'm necessarily in Air Stance).

I mean, obviously it's better to have the option to do it than not, but I could be putting those 3 XP to better use.

If you make a roll, say 3 ring + 3 skill like I posed above. The result is 3 blanks, two opps and an opp with success. What are you going to keep that success for? Slightly missing the average TN 2 to strike? I'd rather keep Opp, Opp and Blank, have the option to use the success next round, and probly consult the Air table for more options with my second Opp. There is nothing you can do immediately with a bad roll aside from protect yourself until things come back to you next round.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

3 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

with Air 2 (average value)

Air 2 is a poor value in the game. When you are thinking about pulling Techniques and such you are doing it with 8k4 (4 Skill dice, 4 Ring dice, keeping 4 dice) at the bare minimum, but 9+1k6 (8k4 + Void + Assistance) is optimal. 

[Avatar111 553]

2 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I get the feeling that striking as air was intended to be duel centric, and, as a rule with most dueling abilities, useless in games that don't have a fair number of them. Playing a Kakita is cool, but I don't see the benefit of Striking as Fire and the Kakita school ability is also useless fighting groups of henchmen that auto-KO when fatigue = endurance.

If you make a roll, say 3 ring + 3 skill like I posed above. The result is 3 blanks, two opps and an opp with success. What are you going to keep that success for? Slightly missing the average TN 2 to strike? I'd rather keep Opp, Opp and Blank, have the option to use the success next round, and probly consult the Air table for more options with my second Opp. There is nothing you can do immediately with a bad roll aside from protect yourself until things come back to you next round.

That dice you kept cost you 1opp (can do something with it right now)

And you'll roll 1less dice on your next roll (if it even happen).

Its bad. Simply bad. Sure, it might be tiny bit better than nothing at all, but it is still a very awful, weak, technique.

Is your point of view is that of you dont need to roll less dice next roll it becomes op?

Remember, you have to use the reserve dice on the next turn, using the same skill... Lots of things can change in a full turn...

 

[ExplodingJoe 131]

Why do I want to roll a dice, when I can just add one that says success + opp? What is the point?

[Avatar111 553]

6 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

Why do I want to roll a dice, when I can just add one that says success + opp? What is the point?

Are you seriously asking that question?

As is you need to roll one less dice to add your dice.

I'm talking about adding your dice and not having to roll one less.

 

"Why" you are asking ?

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Avatar111

[JBento 229]

14 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

 

If you make a roll, say 3 ring + 3 skill like I posed above. The result is 3 blanks, two opps and an opp with success. What are you going to keep that success for? Slightly missing the average TN 2 to strike? I'd rather keep Opp, Opp and Blank, have the option to use the success next round, and probly consult the Air table for more options with my second Opp. There is nothing you can do immediately with a bad roll aside from protect yourself until things come back to you next round.

 

Here's what you could be doing with that second Opp, depending on the techniques you have:

-learn your opponent's Strife level

- Increase teh TN of the check for Breath Of Wind

- Neutralising your opponent's second weapon with Coiling Serpent, if they have one; if they don't, and if you're using Thunderclap Strike, neutralise a SECOND opponent's weapon;

- If you're using a polearm, apply Iron Forest to an additional foe;

- Set an opponent's stance with Open-Hand

- MAYBE Spinning Blades Style? probably not

- Give Strife with Pelting Hail, if you're ranged

 

Unrelated, you don't have to keep the blank? Aren't kept dice UP TO your Ring level, not equal?

Edited October 24, 2018 by JBento

[ExplodingJoe 131]

 

17 minutes ago, JBento said:

 

Here's what you could be doing with that second Opp, depending on the techniques you have:

I usually read it as equal. If its up to, then I wouldn't.

Of the listed options, when I'm playing a regular bushi character at rank 1, Iron Forest is a good pick if I have a polearm. That's probly not going to be the case all the time. It's all situational. For Striking as Air - I can understand the desire to roll your entire dice pool, and then boot out whatever rolled poorly to replace it with your dropped dice, but honestly. I'd say the only buff it could use is that the kept dice can be used on any roll until the end of your next turn. I don't buy the idea that rolling 5 of 6 dice, and adding your dropped die in as the 6th is a bad deal.

[JBento 229]

2 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

 

I usually read it as equal. If its up to, then I wouldn't.

Of the listed options, when I'm playing a regular bushi character at rank 1, Iron Forest is a good pick if I have a polearm. That's probly not going to be the case all the time. It's all situational. For Striking as Air - I can understand the desire to roll your entire dice pool, and then boot out whatever rolled poorly to replace it with your dropped dice, but honestly. I'd say the only buff it could use is that the kept dice can be used on any roll until the end of your next turn. I don't buy the idea that rolling 5 of 6 dice, and adding your dropped die in as the 6th is a bad deal.

Ok, just checked, it's UP TO, minimum one (this might be important if you want to avoid taking Strife to the face that you can otherwise avoid).

It's not a bad deal, it's just that it has a high opportunity (not Opportunity) cost. You could be putting those 3 XP towards a ring or skill increase, for instance. I mean, unless Striking as Air is your only option for starting Kata, in which case... sure? I guess?

[ExplodingJoe 131]

Which is why I was initially confused that it wasn't 2 xp. Since my thought was that they intended low powered techniques to be meaningfully less expensive than high powered ones. If they actually meant to level the xp cost as a whole... courtiers and bushi feel gipped. They get a situational extra opp spend for the same price as the ability to breath fire.

[Avatar111 553]

19 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I don't buy the idea that rolling 5 of 6 dice, and adding your dropped die in as the 6th is a bad deal.

it is a bad deal, compared to the other "striking as" technique. it is by far the weakest (fire is also kind of meh, but earth and water and void are just amazing) and heavily situational. remember it cost you one opportunity from your roll to reserve that one dice and that you need to use it on the same skill, before the end of your next turn.

so nobody in their right mind would ever pick striking as air technique unless they have it forced on them.

i'd wager to say it would still be only "kind of average" if you get to not roll less dice on your next check.

 

[Avatar111 553]

18 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

Which is why I was initially confused that it wasn't 2 xp. Since my thought was that they intended low powered techniques to be meaningfully less expensive than high powered ones. If they actually meant to level the xp cost as a whole... courtiers and bushi feel gipped. They get a situational extra opp spend for the same price as the ability to breath fire.

on that yeah, Monks look very strong. haven't read Shugenjas yet.

so far for kata theres not many i houseruled;

rushing avalanche; works with sword,axe,blunt that have the cumbersome quality.

coiled serpent; replace the 1opp spending by: increase the TN to all checks made with that weapon by 1 (instead of not able to use attack action with it)

striking as air; no need to roll less dice.

striking as fire; all crits the target receive for one full turn (like how earth and water works) and not just for the next crit.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Avatar111

[AtoMaki 1,431]

23 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I don't buy the idea that rolling 5 of 6 dice, and adding your dropped die in as the 6th is a bad deal.

It is bad in a way that rolling 6 of 6 dice and replacing one or more results with your reserved die if you so desire is considerably better.