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MasterShake2

Objective Analysis: TIE Bomber, Y-Wing and Punisher

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Fair to say that I've come to like the Y-Wing and I just wanted to see how it measured up to it's 2 closest analogs in the Empire just to see where they're all sitting at in terms of what you get for the cost.

 

For this comparison, we're just using the basic I2 version with no Elite upgrades, which all 3 ships helpfully have (although we will look at the named piltos near the end in relation to how they're costed to the generic I2)

 

28pts- Scimitar Squadron Pilot

32pts- Gray Squadron Bomber

36pts- Cutlass Squadron Pilot

 

We also pretty conveniently have an even point difference, with 4 pts from the generic bomber to the Y-Wing and 4 more from the generic Y-Wing to the Punisher.

 

Ship Ability

Let's get the easy one out of the way first, TIE Bomber is the clear winner because it's the only one with a ship ability namely Nimble Bomber which lets it use bank templates for devices.  You do have to equip a device for it to matter, but you go from 1 possible position to drop a device up to 3 and with bombardier, that goes all the way up to 6.  With specific upgrades, it's fairly powerful, but not overwhelmingly so.

-Rank

#1: TIE Bomber

#2 and 3:  Y-Wing and TIE Punisher

 

Maneuver Dial

So we have another fairly clear winner here with the TIE Bomber pretty easily beating both.  Your straight 4 and 3 turns aren't red and you have multiple K-Turn options.  You can certainly argue the value of blue 1 banks vs. 2 blue banks, but neither is clearly better, it's just a matter of the situation you find yourself in.  The Y-Wing and Punisher are basically the same here.  The Y-Wing has a red 4 straight and the Punisher doesn't even have a 4 straight, but the punisher also has a stop.  I won't go too deep into figuring out which one is more valuable, (I think the 0 stop, but you could make an argument for the the 4 straight) so we'll just call it a wash.

-Rank

#1: TIE Bomber

#2 and 3:  Y-Wing and TIE Punisher

 

Action Bar

For this one, the winner is the Punisher, but only by a narrow margin.  It's the only of the 3 that has boost at all and the only one with a white reload and it still has a good linked action.  The TIE Bomber does have a white roll that can link into a lock, but both it and the Punisher have a repo that links into a lock, so for me it's the extra repo option + white reload that really clenches it, but a white barrel roll and especially linking it into a lock for an ordinance carrier is still really good, so the Punisher isn't running away with this one, but I do think it wins.  The Y-Wing isn't even really in contention.  It's the only 1 of the 3 without a white repo action, still has a red reload and it's only white actions are focus and lock. 

-Rank

#1: TIE Punisher

#2:  TIE Bomber

#3:  Y-Wing

 

Durability

Winner here is the Punisher and pretty easily.  This can be objectively compared.  It just has +1 shield over a Y-Wing and the extra 3 hp are just better than the +1 AGL on the bomber.  The Y-Wing and TIE Bomber is considerably closer.  6hp at AGL 2 is mathematically slightly weaker than 8hp with AGL 1 against 2 dice attacks and the 8hp gets a more substantial, but still not crushing lead against 3-4+ dice attacks.  There's also the fact that the Y-Wing has 2 shields.  The impact of this is really hard to put into numbers because if the first 2 hits that go through are normal, then the shields didn't do anything.  It is better, but there's a pretty good chance the  first few hits aren't crits anyways, so it's not huge.  The Y-Wing is far enough ahead for a clear win, but isn't completely blowing the bomber away.

-Rank

#1: TIE Punisher

#2:  Y-Wing

#3:  TIE Bomber

 

Attack

N/A, they're all attack 2 base, so the only real difference in damage will come down to secondaries, so we'll look at that with upgrade bars next.

 

Upgrade Bar

The biggest question here for who wins is "Is double missile superior to Astromech + Turret?".  For me, at this point, that answer is yes.  Barrage rockets are very well costed and being focus instead of lock required makes them easier to use especially with generics.  Right now, the offerings for both astromechs and turrets are pretty mediocre with most of the astromechs being inexpensive, but also not hugely impactful and both of the turrets being capped at range 2 and somewhat anemic in terms of damage.  There are some interesting combinations with gunners and turret slots, but then you're ship cost starts inflating a lot for both a turret and gunner and your damage output doesn't dramatically increase over just hitting the target with a missile or torpedo.  The TIE Bomber does also have 2 bombs for what it's worth.  In this regards, my assessment is that the TIE Bomber is currently and narrowly beating the Y-Wing, but repricing of upgrades or future releases could easily change this.  The Punisher easily beats both of them though.  System slots are really good (Fire Control System, Trajectory Simulator, Advanced Sensors, Collision Detector) at this point and the System + device combination (especially with a possible gunner slot for bombardier) adds the option of launching bombs which dictate the entire flow of the game and the initial engagement.  Since the Punisher's bar is just the TIE Bomber's + a system, it just beats both the TIE Bomber and the Y-Wing.

#1: TIE Punisher

#2:  TIE Bomber

#3:  Y-Wing

 

 

So, with the spread of abilities and stats, my expectation if you just showed me this in terms of cost (without looking at the PDF or app) would be that the Y-wing and TIE Bomber should be pretty close to each other With the Punisher out ahead of both, but by a small amount.  Looking at where they actually are, the TIE Bomber being 4pt less than the Y-Wing is very anomalous.  There doesn't seem to be a valid reason as far as I can tell since the Y-wing has a durability edge, but is worse or substantially worse in every other category.  The baseline generic Punisher is appropriately costed with the exception of the game impact you can get out of the Trajectory Simulator + Proton or Seismic.  In my mind, this could easily be fixed with a small adjustment to the trajectory simulator cost (it's only ever used for 1 thing, so there's no risk of unintentionally nerfing another combo).  If the Punisher is undercosted, it's at most by 1-2pts.  The TIE Bomber is definitely undercosted by about 3-4pts if we assume the Y-Wing's costing is correct (otherwise the Y-Wing is overcosted by 3-4 pts).

 

The Unique pilots is actually where this gets even more bizarre.  Captain Jonus is an I4 pilot with an ability that buffs all other nearby ships firing ordinance and is 8pts more than a generic.  Dutch is an I4 pilot with an ability that can allow 1 friendly ship to more easily fire ordinance at his target for 10pts more than a generic.  Norra is also a full 11pts more than a generic for an ability that's only situationally brilliant and at I5.  I don't actually think Jonus is the biggest problem with these generics and if the TIE Bomber's costing was brought more in line, he'd make more sense, but I still think Dutch is overcosted.  Redline is an entirely different story.  He's 8pts more than a generic for an I5 pilot that has an ability that is never not useful unless you already have a target lock on the thing you want to shoot.  It's not just action economy, it's action economy that's always relevant, requires no setup and plays to the strength of the platform.   He one of the precious few pilots that can focus and target lock in a single turn on his own with no upgrades (the others being the Vader and Lando that are both far more expensive than Redline and neither of those can take Proton Torpedoes).  I can't come up with a justification for why a pilot ability this good, that always applicable and even more relevant to the platform and on an I5 pilot is only 8pts more than a generic I2. 

 

Closing Thoughts

I'm not sure if they'll touch the TIE Bomber or Y-Wing with the recosting, but I would like the see less of a cost gap between the 2 (regardless of whether is means adjusting the Bomber up, the Y-Wing down or just having them meet in the middle)  and reeling back of some of the named Y-Wing pilots (or at least the more expensive ones like Dutch and Norra) would definitely help.  Redline does need a cost jump.  An action economy ability that's always relevant should be closer to the 10-12pt range ahead of a generic i.e. jumping redline up to at least 46-48, but even then, he presents such a massive advantage over any other Punisher that I'm not sure that's enough. 

 

If you are about to post with something to the effect of "You can't compare across factions" then I would definitely appreciate a breakdown of what elements you believe the different factions have that would justify the current cost breakdown of these ships because all of the cards I've looked at have Rebels being marginally better at single target buffs where Empire has more global buffs, but this wouldn't justify making Empire platforms cheaper since they can be buffed by the same platforms that are incidentally buffing other things while the rebels have fewer buffs to go around making it easier to justify cheaper platforms because those are less likely to receive the buffs anyways.

Edited by MasterShake2

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Y-wing can do ion cannon vet gunner.

The other 2 can't.

For me they are in completly different rolls, I have never flown a y-wing with ordinance. 

An actual comparison would be y-wing to Tie aggressor and I think the y-wing crushes the aggressor.

If you are trying to run the y-wing as an empire bomber well you won't match it because it is the empire bomber. 

Bomber is probably closer to a k-wing, then the y-wing. And it's probably way better then the k-wing.

Anyways I think you are comparing ships in completly different rolls.

 

Edited by Icelom

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18 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

Has anyone tried running naked y-wings yet?  They are now 2 points (in 1.0 terms) less than the original version.  PLUS they got a slightly better dial and ability barrel roll (albeit as a red action).

Seem like a steal to me.

Yeah, unless you actually want to hit something.

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31 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

Has anyone tried running naked y-wings yet?  They are now 2 points (in 1.0 terms) less than the original version.  PLUS they got a slightly better dial and ability barrel roll (albeit as a red action).

Seem like a steal to me.

6 possible for 192 pts bare. 48 hp, 12 combined red, 6 combined green, slow. You could run 5 with Ion Cannon and R4 (200 pts even). Probably not the best idea, but if you give it a go lets us know. ?

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1 hour ago, Old Sarge said:

Yeah, unless you actually want to hit something.

I'll admit I haven't played any 2.0 games yet, but I was under the belief that 2 attack ships were much better now that there's isn't as much crazy defense in the game.

A two attack ship that has 8 hit points (at 1 agility granted) for 32 points just seems like a great value to me.

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5 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Fair to say that I've come to like the Y-Wing and I just wanted to see how it measured up to it's 2 closest analogs in the Empire just to see where they're all sitting at in terms of what you get for the cost.

I like your assessment but reflecting on @Icelom’s comments I think you should’ve included the TIE/ag.  I wonder if the Y-Wing is costed where it is for two reasons.  Firstly, Rebel tactical flexibility - on the Y-Wing ordnance, devices, turrets, astromechs can build up some combos of stuff - compared to Imperial cheaper but more specialised ships.  Is the ability to combo many upgrades types valuable?  Secondly, the Turret slot - are the devs, cautious after 1.0, putting turret tax on ships?  The TIE/ag seems expensive (30 points) for what it is compared to a Y-Wing and TIE/sa.

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6 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

For this one, the winner is the Punisher, but only by a narrow margin.  

[...]

-Rank

#1: TIE Bomber

 #2:  Punisher

 

You mixed them for the action bar. Where I disagree by the way, I think the Punisher wins easily because the barrel roll has only 1/4 longitudinal movement now which basically removes the ability to range control with it.

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7 hours ago, Sasajak said:

I like your assessment but reflecting on @Icelom’s comments I think you should’ve included the TIE/ag.  I wonder if the Y-Wing is costed where it is for two reasons.  Firstly, Rebel tactical flexibility - on the Y-Wing ordnance, devices, turrets, astromechs can build up some combos of stuff - compared to Imperial cheaper but more specialised ships.  Is the ability to combo many upgrades types valuable?  Secondly, the Turret slot - are the devs, cautious after 1.0, putting turret tax on ships?  The TIE/ag seems expensive (30 points) for what it is compared to a Y-Wing and TIE/sa.

 

The problem with including the TIE Aggressor is that it raises even more questions about the TIE Bomber

-Slightly worse dial (1 K-Turn option vs. 2)

-It's action bar has a weird linked action (Roll into Evade) which gives you a repo, but doesn't help you fire a missile or turret any better (like a roll into a focus, lock or rotate) and of course doesn't have reload, so it loses there as well.

-Straight up loses on durability because even with the new crit deck, 2 hull is still greater than 1 shield

-TIE Bomber has Torps and double bombs vs. a turret option, so unless a better turret gets released, it's beating the aggressor there as well.

-And, of course, no native ship ability

 

With that, you'd expect it to be about 2ish points cheaper than the Bomber, but it's actually 2pts more.  If you side by side the Aggressor with the Y-Wing it's more even (aggressor has better dial and broadly better action bar with the white roll and linked action, but no reload with a comparable upgrade bar, but less durabilty), but the Y-Wing does win by the appropriate 2pts or so.  The just cements for me that the TIE Bomber's costing is substantially off because you'd really never use the aggressor unless a relevant turret was released.

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10 hours ago, markcsoul said:

I'll admit I haven't played any 2.0 games yet, but I was under the belief that 2 attack ships were much better now that there's isn't as much crazy defense in the game.

A two attack ship that has 8 hit points (at 1 agility granted) for 32 points just seems like a great value to me.

Two attack ships are being played, but they're not being played for their two dice, but instead, for the value that they bring to the table in spite of those two dice. Examples of this are AP-5, Escape Craft, Drea, and the Quadjumper. Along these lines, cheap blockers like the Z-95 are taken for their ability to be a blockers, rather than damage dealers.

Along these lines, a lot of two dice ships are seeing play, but are taking upgrades that make them not shoot only two dice. The poster child for this is a barrage bomber, but Y-Wings, Punishers, and K-Wings are all throwing more dice than just their two reds under ideal circumstances.

So yes, two dice ships are good in 2.0, but they are good in spite of their 2 dice, not because of it. Juke Rexlar, Juke Whisper, and Supernatural Luke are meta big bads and two dice essentially do nothing against them, so I would say that two dice are only marginally better than they were in 1.0. 

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49 minutes ago, Varyag said:

The extra 4 points is for the turret.

 

...that you also have to pay for?  If the turrets are worth 4pts then cost them 4 extra points.  Right now, the privilege of equipping a turret is worth nothing because neither turret is particularly good and this kind of costing is what sank the 1.0 Y-Wings until they finally released the TLT.

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The other dramatic difference between the Punisher and the others is the Base size. The Medium base drastically changes what and how the punisher flies and affects it’s ability to maneuver and or to be blocked.

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6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is there any point of the tie AG? lol. meh. 

I does everything, but everything it does is done better by something else. Could probably be made playable by a slight point drop though. Would be nice if FFG could design a cheap gunner that works well with low I though. Something like "after defending, if you took damage, you may perform a focus action" at 4ish points.

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I believe that the designers were intentionally overpricing turrets because they wanted a game that focuses more on arcs and actually flying at your enemy.  Bit they did it backwards.  Don't overprice the ship. (Y-wing is prolly a little and TIE Aggressor is way overcoated) Instead, make the turrets and turret gunners more expensive.

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@MasterShake2: Your analysis is very detailed and well thought out. I think it shows the lack of a proper math model in X-wing, which is a real shame.  I still love 2.0 but your cost strategies may be effective for balancing the Y-wing for sure. That said, you'd then have to look at every similar ship and modify their cost accordingly as well to maintain balance. That's not on you, but on FFG. 

I like the Y-wing, but I'd rather fly X-wings for sure - both for looks and for playability. It'd be nice to have the Y a viable rebel asset, though I don't feel it's in an absolutely horrible place right now.

On a related note, I wonder if you've thought of doing a similar comparison between the X-wing and the TIE/x1. Many state the x1 is garbage, but I disagree - I see it as a very balanced foil for the X-wing based on survivability, dial, hitting power, and typical loadout cost.

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i do not understand why you need to compare a y wing with a bomber 

They are simply different ships (without talking about punisher that is clearly something else).

You can see them also in this way:

Bombers have 6 hulls, compared to the y wing that has 6hulls and 2 shields, we can say that to obtain the same on a bomber we should add 2 shield upgrade (that is impossible) at the cost of 10 points (5 per each considering it's an agi 2 sgip).

If you consider that is only 4 points cheaper the y wing seems 6 point undercosted.

I do not agree also on dial. You can have a very better dial than the bomber of you add the R4 astromec for 2 points, reducing the difficulty of all your manuver. (Except k turn)

 So doing the math, your y wing is still 4 points undercosted.

In the end we can talk about bomber linked antion: here bomber SEEMS better than y wing 

(And here we come to parity)

BUT REMEMBER THAT:

Barrel in red t.l. IS STRESSING ,USEFULL ONLY ON HIGH INITIATIVE BOMBERS THAT MOVE LAST AND WITH MISSILES/TORPS THAT NEED T.L..

The utility of This linked action is very initiative, list and bid dependant. 

For this reason many people for prefere to put barrages roxkets on bombers needing only a focus to shoot.

Stop complaining please.

As imperial player i really hope that one day will came out a very strong turret that can't be used from bombers

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Y'know, that's a good point.  Astromechs make the Y-wing very customizable. Maybe the extra cost is the customizing tax?

It seems the rebs have loads of customizability via astromechs, while the Empire has it via systems. Rebs still get some systems, but the astros are their schtick. Does Dutch become far more worth the points when his buddies get two locks? Are Y-wings more dangerous when their dial is better? There are a lot of factors that probably need more scrutiny.

I need to try flying some Y-wings soonish to test this out myself, but I've been having far too much fun with my squints and bombers. :)

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