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Marinealver

Hyperspace format and ship bans?

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At very least, folks shouldn't go sulking until we actually know what the format is.

I think the general concept is a good idea, but could easily wind up grumbling onhere about how limited it might be, or if there isn't good balance in available options and points costs.

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Tractor Beam cannon seems pretty fine to me.  Tractor Array as an action is far too cheap.  I wonder if they would be willing to make the Tugboat limited.  One per list is probably way more balanced.

A limited format of some variety is almost necessary if the newer factions are going to be playable for store level events.  It's also much more likely that FFG will get a smaller pool of pilots and upgrades balanced rather than 14+ waves all at once.

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Why do people think the formats have anything to do with balance issues (why ban when they can fix point costs directly?), or would outright ban certain mechanics from the game? 

It has nothing to do with that. It’s about limiting the massive card pool to make the game accessible and to provide new listbuilding challenges each season (that’s not contingent on new releases). 

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10 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

Why do people think the formats have anything to do with balance issues (why ban when they can fix point costs directly?), or would outright ban certain mechanics from the game? 

It has nothing to do with that. It’s about limiting the massive card pool to make the game accessible and to provide new listbuilding challenges each season (that’s not contingent on new releases). 

It's also probably about pushing new releases without (too much) power creep. 

 

FFG doesn't need to keep making new releases stronger and/or explore new mechanics in order to make them more attractive if you'll need to buy them to compete anyway. It won't matter if the newly released ship B is already worse at doing thing X than the existing ship A, if ship A is out of rotation. 

Edited by LordBlades

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13 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

Why do people think the formats have anything to do with balance issues (why ban when they can fix point costs directly?), or would outright ban certain mechanics from the game? 

It has nothing to do with that. It’s about limiting the massive card pool to make the game accessible and to provide new listbuilding challenges each season (that’s not contingent on new releases). 

Because people are dumb.

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On 10/20/2018 at 11:30 AM, SOTL said:

Most people don't see it because they're still in the honeymoon period of everyone just mucking about and trying to work out what's good.  But when you DO work out what's good you realise there sure as **** isn't a lot of it.

Genuine curiosity, what are the ships/pilots that you think are good?  I've seen this been suggested a few time, but I haven't seen the concrete examples of what's above the curve with a couple of exceptions like Boba and Redline.

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1 hour ago, Jarval said:

Genuine curiosity, what are the ships/pilots that you think are good?  I've seen this been suggested a few time, but I haven't seen the concrete examples of what's above the curve with a couple of exceptions like Boba and Redline.

Redline, Deathrain, Whisper, Palob, 4-LOM, any strong scum Gunner slot ship.  You can also fit Jonus/Drea into a similar pot for enabling the equivalent of additional action economy in other ships at low cost.  It's a small list.

The common thread is +1 action for minimal/no cost.

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Well I can see that currently Extended format is polarizing to X-wing players much like The Last Jedi is polarizing to Star Wars fans.

Anyway the problem with Extended is that 4 of the 7 factions have some serious catch up to do, the problem with 2nd edition is a choking restriction of model options. Advantage of Extended is you can play with any 1st edition model, for 2nd edition the advantage is that all the factions (currently released) are on equal footing.

Now I don't exactly know what will determine the Hyperspace format other than an attempt to find a happy medium between 2nd edition and extended until the two formats eventually merged together. If I were to make a suggestion for hyperspace format this is what it would be.

  • All ship/pilots/upgrades from core and released 2nd edition waves.
  • 1-3 pilots from each ship in the conversion kits and a curated upgrade list (to fill the upgrade slot gaps that haven't been filled by 2nd edition yet). 

That is my idea of what will be the closest to a happy medium but if this thread (and forum) is of any proof is that happiness is a rather tenuous thing to reach for.

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2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

 

  • All ship/pilots/upgrades from core and released 2nd edition waves.
  • 1-3 pilots from each ship in the conversion kits and a curated upgrade list (to fill the upgrade slot gaps that haven't been filled by 2nd edition yet). 

 

I think that's very likely.  You'll see the A-Wing/B-Wing/Falcon added to Rebels, for instance, the Bomber/Interceptor/Lambda added to Imperials.

You don't really see any pro-Hyperspace people being fussy about what's going to be in/out of the format.  The problem entirely comes from the hardline 'either I get to use all my toys all the time or I blackmail the company by threatening to quit' Extended bunch.  Those guys can go hang.

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In first edition ships with good action economy ruled. Thanks to access to PTL it were mostly ships with enough greens to get rid of stress. 

Now we don't have access to PTL which narrows ships choice only to those who have PTL-like abilities (Redline etc). 

It supposed to be no token stacking yet we have Focus, double Evade Whisper or Evade, double Focus, rerolls Boba Fett etc. 

At start of 2.0 edition I was worried about Coordinate being somehow broken mechanic allowing to takie multiple actions in single acion environment, but then I saw Boba/Redline/Supernatural Force users/4 tokens Palob/double moded+stress giving 4-Lom etc and I realized that power curve already passed Coordinate before it even started :)

The only things that counters those multiple action monsters are massively undercosted Imperial Bombers lead by Jonus (for better action economy ofc ;) ) and Drea fuelled Scum swarm (thanks to unique Quadjumper mechanics) 

There's some corner cases of ships that aren't action economy abusers or aren't  massively undercosted and yet still playable on the competitive level thanks to unique abilities, but those are exceptions (Wedge Antilles comes to mind mostly)

Edited by Oldpara

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On 10/23/2018 at 12:44 AM, SOTL said:

I'm done with pandering to their 'my way or I sulk' attitude.  Don't like it, there's the door.

Locally, that'd mean losing the majority of the players and fracturing the community possibly beyond repair. There's no chance of a Second Edition tourney being successful here. If we had to make the choice, we'd probably lose the players insisting on a limited format, rather than the other way around. Maybe another limited format could work, but I guess we'll see once FFG reveals what they're working on.

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54 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

In first edition ships with good action economy ruled. Thanks to access to PTL it were mostly ships with enough greens to get rid of stress. 

Now we don't have access to PTL which narrows ships choice only to those who have PTL-like abilities (Redline etc). 

It supposed to be no token stacking yet we have Focus, double Evade Whisper or Evade, double Focus, rerolls Boba Fett etc. 

At start of 2.0 edition I was worried about Coordinate being somehow broken mechanic allowing to takie multiple actions in single acion environment, but then I saw Boba/Redline/Supernatural Force users/4 tokens Palob/double moded+stress giving 4-Lom etc and I realized that power curve already passed Coordinate before it even started :)

The only things that counters those multiple action monsters are massively undercosted Imperial Bombers lead by Jonus (for better action economy ofc ;) ) and Drea fuelled Scum swarm (thanks to unique Quadjumper mechanics) 

There's some corner cases of ships that aren't action economy abusers or aren't  massively undercosted and yet still playable on the competitive level thanks to unique abilities, but those are exceptions (Wedge Antilles comes to mind mostly)

100%.  It was never a single action environment it was a double-modded environment with a very small number of viable ships.

This was all predicted in SOTL's rules of how FFG will screw the reboot up, unfortunately.

  1. It won't be balanced
  2. The competitive choices will be super-narrow
  3. The starting power level will be set too high
  4. They'll power creep aggressively so pretty soon it's worse than 1st Edition
Edited by SOTL

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4 hours ago, SOTL said:


This was all predicted in SOTL's rules of how FFG will screw the reboot up, unfortunately.

  1. It won't be balanced
  2. The competitive choices will be super-narrow
  3. The starting power level will be set too high
  4. They'll power creep aggressively so pretty soon it's worse than 1st Edition

I agree with 1,2,3 but I doubt about 4.

While power creep is there indeed, some of abusive, unpleasant and hated mechanics are marginalized or removed completely (hiper defense, turrets, perfect information etc) 

So when in 1.0 we were using few super action economy turret (or semi turret) ships now we are using few super action economy arc dependant ships which is great leap into right direction because positioning matters more than used to be. 

So if we drop unrealistic expectations that ALL the ships will be viable, and we acknowledge the fact, that NO MATTER of points changes, rebalance trys etc there awyas will be small  group of most powerful pilots to choose form if you wanna play competitively, we can safely say than game is super fun and we can enjoy it a lot (I enjoyed 1.0 to the very end as well tho ;)) 

So let's just stop pretending that this is game for 50 ships properly balanced: it's a game for like 10 ships and the rest is only background. After "rebelanicing" it will be other 10 ships ;)

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Somebody said perfect information, so being totally crass and deviating from the thread, I just want to point out that Action Tractor breaks the concept of PI and defeats the purpose of a double blind planning stage as only players with action tractors possess PI for themselves. If you haven't figured it out yet, I hate Tractors. 

Back on topic, I was musing the other day that Imperial Assault had a time mechanism printed on much of the material to keep the timeline accurate. I don't think it ever got used much and I seem to recall that they stopped printing it in at some point. Point is that if nothing else I'm looking forward to sequel tournaments despite hating the movies, and tractor beams are written in the rules like a five year old ham fisting a broken crayon dropping acid.

PS: can someone explain to me why Wedge has a tractor beam equipped? Asking for a friend. His name is Wedge and he wants to know why the special ability he can only apply to his one shot is a team ability for another faction. He's pretty upset about it.

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3 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

Somebody said perfect information, so being totally crass and deviating from the thread, I just want to point out that Action Tractor breaks the concept of PI and defeats the purpose of a double blind planning stage as only players with action tractors possess PI for themselves. If you haven't figured it out yet, I hate Tractors. 

Back on topic, I was musing the other day that Imperial Assault had a time mechanism printed on much of the material to keep the timeline accurate. I don't think it ever got used much and I seem to recall that they stopped printing it in at some point. Point is that if nothing else I'm looking forward to sequel tournaments despite hating the movies, and tractor beams are written in the rules like a five year old ham fisting a broken crayon dropping acid.

PS: can someone explain to me why Wedge has a tractor beam equipped? Asking for a friend. His name is Wedge and he wants to know why the special ability he can only apply to his one shot is a team ability for another faction. He's pretty upset about it.

Actually action TB is fairly easy to avoid - Quads have max 3 fwd, die fast etc. We just need to learn and adopt how to avoid it. Of course if there's swarm of Quads it's tricky, but swarm of Bombers as well ;) (Maybe less NPE tho) 

Wedge and Quads comparison is completely unfair: Wedge plays standard game looking for best shot opportunities to kill and he benefits from his ability during the process (ergo: in addition, as a boost) while Quadjumper are playing completely different game looking for position to be able to put Tractor on ship, which is completely different position than the one you wanna be at to have best shot. So QD often sacrifice possibility to shot enemy for possibility to tractor enemy, so they play support role mostly (other ships benefit from their work) and needs to be capitalized in different way than self efficient Wedge (you need to adapt both playstyle and list to fully benefit from Quadjumper ability). 

 

And Quadjumper isn't "whole faction" ;) Your grudge must be strong ?

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Wedge doesn't have a tractor beam he's an ace shot whose expert abilities are represented in the games mechanics by reducing the opponent's change to dodge his attacks.

He doesn't assign tractor tokens, he doesn't move or boost people.  You need to get a grip.

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7 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Actually action TB is fairly easy to avoid - Quads have max 3 fwd, die fast etc. We just need to learn and adopt how to avoid it. Of course if there's swarm of Quads it's tricky, but swarm of Bombers as well ;) (Maybe less NPE tho) 

Wedge and Quads comparison is completely unfair: Wedge plays standard game looking for best shot opportunities to kill and he benefits from his ability during the process (ergo: in addition, as a boost) while Quadjumper are playing completely different game looking for position to be able to put Tractor on ship, which is completely different position than the one you wanna be at to have best shot. So QD often sacrifice possibility to shot enemy for possibility to tractor enemy, so they play support role mostly (other ships benefit from their work) and needs to be capitalized in different way than self efficient Wedge (you need to adapt both playstyle and list to fully benefit from Quadjumper ability). 

 

And Quadjumper isn't "whole faction" ;) Your grudge must be strong ?

Agreed. I really don't see what the problem with the Quadjumper is. It's a squishier Bomber that is mostly useless if not for that action; an action that is very easy to avoid. It is also a generic, I1 answer to aces, forcing the ace player to actually do some work, not just dial in 2-turn, and double reposition to dodge all arcs.

I've played half a dozen games against the 'jumper so far in 2.0, and never actually been hit by the tractor. The ship just melts at R2-3, especially if you have access to something that deals crits reliably.

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Max 3-forward means the Quad cannot make the leap from out of range into range 1. It also almost certainly gives up its own shot to tractor array. This leaves several possibilities open. 

1) Make it a priority target and kill it before it can get to range 1. 

2) Upon engagement, dive to range 1 yourself. Barring coordinate shenanigans it’s impossible for the Quad to tractor array you from there. 

3) if you know you’re being arrayed this turn, plan for it. Tractors do no damage themselves... they rely on obstacles and additional firing arcs to do that. Predicting which direction you’ll be tractored, if any, should be trivial. Plan maneuvers to disengage and avoid blocks to the best of your ability, and live to fight another day. 

As @Oldpara mentioned swarms of Quads make this trickier. But basic anti-swarm tactics also apply here. 

Edited by WAC47

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1.) If you make it a priority target you die to their combat ships. Fenn eats you. Guri eats you. Boba eats you. Your down the initial joust advantage of taking out a heavy hitter and probably gave up one of your own.

2.) Diving in to them takes you back to 1, ironically something they probably want you to do.

3.) This is the false perfect information thing. You can't plan on being tractored, as much as you think you should be able to. You can plan on being *eligible* to be tractored, as everyone points out it's a pretty simple effect range. That you absolutely can do. But you can't count on it. Let alone where you'll get tractored to. You could think "oh, he probably wants to tractor me this way thinking I'll do this move, so if I'm going to start there instead I'll do this move which should get me there." Or any variation that you could consider on that. Like "well if I'm actually starting in one of four places, this move still gets me somewhere acceptable regardless." Sounds like a simple planning thing, right? Except you can't even be sure they'll do it. They could just focus. They might only have a two die primary but in this edition that actually means something again. (Thank Force Jesus) Heaven forbid you get into a position while flying a formation dependent list (or even just stuck in the scrum) that you have two ships that are possibly going to be tractored. Now you know only one will, but which one? Between the two ships you have to set two dials planning for EIGHT possible starting positions.

What kills me is that this was a lesson I thought the designers and the community had already learned back with TIE Phantoms back in first edition. Changing the positions of ships after the planning phase before activation defeats the purpose of the planning phase. And tractor is basically a 1 speed decloak that the owning player isn't in control of. you'd think they noticed the similarity. We nerfed the decloak move back to the start of activation (now device) for a reason. Because before that it had the ability to make correct decisions wrong after you were stuck with it. Once we did that reposition ships were able to keep up better with the phantoms since they actually had an idea of where they might be in time to leverage those reposting moves, so in second edition *everything* got a reposition to do the same as it also helped with the old PS war for the purpose of blocking. As someone pointed out earlier tractor upgrade seems to be alright for now. That's because it has the timing to effect ratio balanced (more) right. It moves your ship after your own activation and before the planning phase so your dial is still 100% your control, and only ships that fire after it get the faux* Wedge ability so many Ace's don't benefit from extra free dice mod so there's a kind of price-to-effect thing going on. Tractor Array ignores all that. Yes, I have a deep gripe with the mechanic. But it isn't baseless, we've been here before, and it was terrible then, and it is now.

*(Quick aside, technically wedge has the ability to shoot through obstacles and at long-range while still getting his effect against zero agility whereas tractor beams will only reduce your agility by one regardless so not technically the same... But yeah pretty much the same. I suppose I should be at least accurate.?)

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If the Quadjumper is able to do a move and hit you with the tractor action, you made a mistake in the previous turn, and now you're being punished for it. It moves at I1, it's slow, and it can't roll and tractor. It's not hard to avoid. Also, the wingmen you mentioned (Boba, Guri, Fenn) are all weak at R3, so slowroll and hit them with Barrage Missiles, Proton Torpedos and cheapish 3-dice primaries like Strikers, Interceptors and X-Wings. Or get your own I1s, drop your bid and block the Quad. If they want to move last with Boba, you get to move first with your Academics and Phoenixes.

That's not to say it isn't good. It's really good, and possible a little undercosted, but it's nowhere near as big a problem as some people make it out to be.

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Limited list events...particularly if they are going with a theme (like Battle of Yavin) aren't ban lists.  They are themed events.  Ban lists are picking particular items that are considered bad to take...usually Over Powered, and not allowing them.   Limiting a list for only things that were at a particular battle is different than a ban list. 

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