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MrSkorm

Krassis Trelix + Outmaneuver

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22 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yes.

In exception based rules systems such as this cards routinely provide exceptions to the rules.

It's how they work at all.

but thats the whole debate here. i dont think there is an exception to the rules reference how you perform an attack. you just add an attack arc to the restriction.

as suggested by @nexttwelveexits im gonna stop here and wait.

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17 hours ago, Cassan said:

and that is not correct. the named weapons are just restricted to specific attack arcs. and while performing an attack you use one of the available attack arcs.

whatever.. we'll see.

wait, what? how are they not (front arc) attacks? all of the cards have the (front arc) symbol on them. isn't that what would let you trigger outmaneuver when firing a torpedo with dengar? O_o

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1 hour ago, meffo said:

wait, what? how are they not (front arc) attacks? all of the cards have the (front arc) symbol on them. isn't that what would let you trigger outmaneuver when firing a torpedo with dengar? O_o

weapons are not attacks. its that simple. weapons can have multiple arc symbols e.g. asajjs primary weapon. while performing an attack she can use the [turret arc] attack arc or [front arc] attack arc.

outmaneuver trigger: you perform an attack using the [front arc] attack arc.

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11 minutes ago, Cassan said:

weapons are not attacks. its that simple. weapons can have multiple arc symbols e.g. asajjs primary weapon. while performing an attack she can use the [turret arc] attack arc or [front arc] attack arc.

outmaneuver trigger: you perform an attack using the [front arc] attack arc.

Actually, the Lancer Class Pursuit Craft has 2 firing arcs, like the Moldy Crow HWK.

It has both a forward firing arc and a mobile turret arc.

The fact both arcs can overlap is neither here nor there.  Asajj couldn't trigger Outmanoeuvre with a turret attack pointed out the front.

Outmanoeuvre only requires you to perform a FORWARD ARC attack, which is what the Ion Cannon, Tractor Beam, Jamming Beam, Torpedoes, and most Missiles are.  Nothing changes that at all.  Not even if a special ability allows them to shoot from elsewhere.

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1 hour ago, Cassan said:

weapons are not attacks. its that simple. weapons can have multiple arc symbols e.g. asajjs primary weapon. while performing an attack she can use the [turret arc] attack arc or [front arc] attack arc.

 outmaneuver trigger: you perform an attack using the [front arc] attack arc.

well of course the weapons themselves are not attacks. i think it's very obvious that i'm referring to attacks made with said weapons. i don't believe asajj is a good example, though, since i interpret it as she has two different primary weapons, one is a primary (front arc) with three dice and one is a primary (turret arc) with two dice.

that being said, you explain nicely why i feel that outmaneuver shouldn't trigger when you attack out of you rear arc with krassiss ability.

i still hope you understand the other point of view, though. that the attack remains a (front arc) attack even while krassis performs it out of his (back arc).

please note that i think that's kind of far fetched and silly - and i still believe krassis shouldn't be able to trigger outmaneuver when firing out of his (back arc), even if he's performing an attack with a special (front arc) weapon.

Edited by meffo

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1 hour ago, Cassan said:

weapons are not attacks. its that simple. weapons can have multiple arc symbols e.g. asajjs primary weapon. while performing an attack she can use the [turret arc] attack arc or [front arc] attack arc.

Here's a pretty pedantic distinction, but I think it might be relevant to the disagreement:

Assaj has two different primary weapons, not one primary weapon with different attack arcs. 

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56 minutes ago, meffo said:

i don't believe asajj is a good example, though, since i interpret it as she has two different primary weapons, one is a primary (front arc) with three dice and one is a primary (turret arc) with two dice.

 

16 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

Here's a pretty pedantic distinction, but I think it might be relevant to the disagreement:

Assaj has two different primary weapons, not one primary weapon with different attack arcs. 

i agree, i think the moldy crow title is a good example to assume that asajj also has 2 primary weapons. but it makes no difference for the argument.

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1 hour ago, Damo1701 said:

Asajj couldn't trigger Outmanoeuvre with a turret attack pointed out the front.

not true. she can trigger outmaneuver - even if her turret indicator is pointing to the front - just by using the [front arc] attack arc of her primary weapon.

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2 minutes ago, Cassan said:

not true. she can trigger outmaneuver - even if her turret indicator is pointing to the front - just by using the [front arc] attack arc of her primary weapon.

yes, it's true, since he explicitly states "...with a turret attack...", thus not using the (front arc) attack option. of course, it's also true that she could trigger outmaneuver using her (front arc) attack.

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what he actually said is "with a turret attack pointed out the front", which i interpreted as "even if her turret indicator is pointing to the front".

what is even the point of an incomplete citing for the sake of argument?

 i think we are really done here..

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9 minutes ago, Cassan said:

what he actually said is "with a turret attack pointed out the front", which i interpreted as "even if her turret indicator is pointing to the front".

what is even the point of an incomplete citing for the sake of argument?

 i think we are really done here..

a turret attack, yes. you were the one to differentiate between attacks and weapons, which is a very valid and relevant point that i appreciate a lot.

this is a forum. making sure everyone involved in a thread is on the same page is always relevant.

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9 minutes ago, meffo said:

this is a forum. making sure everyone involved in a thread is on the same page is always relevant.

oh cmon.. thats exactly what i tried to do. the point here is although the indicator is pointing out the front you are still allowed to choose the [front arc] attack arc because of asajjs two available attack arcs.

im not sure @Damo1701 agrees on this. maybe he should just answer for himself. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cassan said:

oh cmon.. thats exactly what i tried to do. the point here is although the indicator is pointing out the front you are still allowed to choose the [front arc] attack arc because of asajjs two available attack arcs.

im not sure @Damo1701 agrees on this. maybe he should just answer for himself. 

 

i'm quite sure he agrees. he even made his first statement using your language, as in a "turret attack". now you're the one arguing, even though he's obviously on the same page as us. ^_^

i'm sure he's more than capable of answering for himself as well, though, it's just not much of a topic to pay attention to. he wrote it like it is, you interpreted it as you wanted. i believe this is the same scenario as people reading the outmaneuver and krassis trelix ability, or reading ten numbs pilot card (oh no, i didn't just drop the ten numb bomb again, did i?).

is forum posts as written even a thing? shouldn't we just stick with forum posts as intended? -_-

(no, i like mine as written, thank you. please ffg, hire technical writers, please please. you could hire me, i could be you technical writer, i'm sure i'd never miss a thing) :P

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4 minutes ago, meffo said:

now you're the one arguing, even though he's obviously on the same page as us.

i dont think its obvious. thats why i even answered instead of stopping and waiting.

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4 minutes ago, Cassan said:

i dont think its obvious. thats why i even answered instead of stopping and waiting.

ok, so how do you interpret this in a way that makes it not true?
 

2 hours ago, Damo1701 said:

The fact both arcs can overlap is neither here nor there.  Asajj couldn't trigger Outmanoeuvre with a turret attack pointed out the front.

asajj is not using a turret arc attack in this case? that's just silly. he clearly states what he means. he's on the same page as you.

sure, asajj could trigger outmaneuver while attacking from her front arc if she's using her front arc primary, but that's not what he's written. he's written turret attack, not turret arc indicator.

don't agree? why? how?

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56 minutes ago, Cassan said:

what he actually said is "with a turret attack pointed out the front", which i interpreted as "even if her turret indicator is pointing to the front".

 

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2 hours ago, Cassan said:

what he actually said is "with a turret attack pointed out the front", which i interpreted as "even if her turret indicator is pointing to the front".

ok, but how? you seem to be good at english. how did you come up with that interpretation? why? and why would anyone respond to an obvious misunderstanding like that? especially since you're responding to him agreeing with you?

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13 hours ago, meffo said:

i'm quite sure he agrees. he even made his first statement using your language, as in a "turret attack". now you're the one arguing, even though he's obviously on the same page as us. ^_^

i'm sure he's more than capable of answering for himself as well, though, it's just not much of a topic to pay attention to. he wrote it like it is, you interpreted it as you wanted. i believe this is the same scenario as people reading the outmaneuver and krassis trelix ability, or reading ten numbs pilot card (oh no, i didn't just drop the ten numb bomb again, did i?).

is forum posts as written even a thing? shouldn't we just stick with forum posts as intended? -_-

(no, i like mine as written, thank you. please ffg, hire technical writers, please please. you could hire me, i could be you technical writer, i'm sure i'd never miss a thing) :P

Many thanks Meffo.

That's exactly what I said.  If I had said a "Front Arc attack with her turret pointed out the front..." then there would have been cause to question what I was saying.

I do think that you are also right where it comes to the reading of cards, exactly as they are written, and how people see what they want, just like with your Numb example.

For what it's worth, I still won't Fly Krassis Trelix until there is a firm answer either way.  However, if I end up facing him, and my opponent wants Outmanoeuvre to trigger, I'll allow it, because of the reasons I have cited.  However, if it never comes up, then, that's fine too.

Which brings me to the final thought.  We spend so much time on the Rules Forum debating situations that may never come up, and, if they do, FFG have already given us a tool to resolve the issue at the table, without it descending into fisticuffs and handbags at dawn, which, unfortunately, seems how most of these threads end up.

Sure, I am pretty sure I've been there too, so, for those involved, I'll apologise now, and leave it here :)

 

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9 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

That's exactly what I said.  If I had said a "Front Arc attack with her turret pointed out the front..." then there would have been cause to question what I was saying.

why would you perform a 2 dice attack with asajj just to not trigger outmaneuver, when you could do a 3 dice attack which triggers outmaneuver?

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3 minutes ago, Cassan said:

why would you perform a 2 dice attack with asajj just to not trigger outmaneuver, when you could do a 3 dice attack which triggers outmaneuver?

What about performing the two attacks? ;)

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This last pages shall be called "Star Wars: X-Wing: The Phantom Distinction."

Basically, I think you're all wrong. What Krassis Trelix ability says is not that you can attack ennemies in your rear arc (not the absence of []) using weapons that are restricted to your forward arc because they are [Forward Arc] weapons.

No no no.

Basically, you can still only attack targets in your forward arc, but now the weapon is not [Forward Arc] but [Rear Arc] instead. So you can't use Outmaneuvre. (Like Dengar can't because it's a [Turret Arc])

"Genius", isn't it ?

</humor>

To throw another bone at people, can't this ability be considered rotating the [Forward Arc] to the back for special weapons ?

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40 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

I do think that you are also right where it comes to the reading of cards, exactly as they are written, and how people see what they want, just like with your Numb example.

Twice now something like this has been said in this thread, if you want to continue the conversation on that please do it in the Ten Numb or Does All Include Zero threads. 

Edited by MockingBird ME

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