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MrSkorm

Krassis Trelix + Outmaneuver

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Recapitulate:

image.png.b2b3da51739da0dd4f4f02eeda6e7945.pngimage.png.5247e694c09494acdb902e407e3803ea.png

image.png.09e3d8c786792b1cb40c5a48395a71f0.png

Working case:

Krassis want to fire at a target in the rear arc.

Declare Target.a Measure Range to the ship in the rear arc. For the purpose, range 2.

Declare Target.b Choose an special weapon. Supose Homing Missiles (Range 2-3, Front Arc)

Declare Target.c Declare Defender HERE'S THE PROBLEM! If based on weapon, Krassis cannot fire because cannot choose defender.  As read in ATTACK ARC "the opposing ship needs to be in the attack arc". So the Krassis ability does mean that it adds the rear arc to the special weapon or it never can attack a ship using his ability.

Declare Target.d Pay.

Krassis change the weapons arc. Then you cannot use Outmaneuver.

 

 

image.png

Edited by Arachneo
Eliminate duplicate image

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4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Stop doing that.

you are not telling me to stop anything. i agree to posts in this forum however i want.

@Arachneo just like me, tried to use the official resources we have at hand to clarify the ops question.

if you want to called that an "assumption" - so be it.

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44 minutes ago, Cassan said:

wait, what? how is dengar contradicting trelix not working with outmaneuver?

Because Dengar's Primary Weapon cannot trigger Outmanoeuvre, regardless of the fact he's pointing it out the front arc, because his WEAPON is a turret.

Therefore, regardless of where the attack comes from Proton Torpedoes trigger Outmanoeuvre because of their WEAPON type.

As it says, FRONT ARC weapon, not primary, not must be located in the FRONT arc, it just says "When you perform a FRONT ARC attack" . Proton Torpedoes are a FRONT ARC attack.  Regardless of where they come from.

Because Krassis Trelix provides an exception to where the attack comes from on the ship.  But, he doesn't change the attack arc printed on the card.

That's how the Dengar Example works here.

A Turret weapon cannot trigger outmanoeuvre, regardless of where it fires from, ergo, Proton Torpedoes WILL trigger outmanoeuvre, regardless of where they come from, because of the weapon type.

Now, if Krassis said something like:

"You may perform FRONT ARC special attacks out of your rear arc, changing those weapons to REAR ARC attacks."

You would be correct in your assumption.

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41 minutes ago, Arachneo said:

Recapitulate:

image.png.b2b3da51739da0dd4f4f02eeda6e7945.pngimage.png.5247e694c09494acdb902e407e3803ea.png

image.png.09e3d8c786792b1cb40c5a48395a71f0.png

Working case:

Krassis want to fire at a target in the rear arc.

Declare Target.a Measure Range to the ship in the rear arc. For the purpose, range 2.

Declare Target.b Choose an special weapon. Supose Homing Missiles (Range 2-3, Front Arc)

Declare Target.c Declare Defender HERE'S THE PROBLEM! If based on weapon, Krassis cannot fire because cannot choose defender.  As read in ATTACK ARC "the opposing ship needs to be in the attack arc". So the Krassis ability does mean that it adds the rear arc to the special weapon or it never can attack a ship using his ability.

Declare Target.d Pay.

Krassis change the weapons arc. Then you cannot use Outmaneuver.

 

 

image.png

You are forgetting the rules about exceptions to the Rules Reference.

Krassis Trelix tells you what you can do with what weapons.  Nowhere does it state on his card you change the attack type on the weapon card.  It just says where the ship may perform them from.

In your example, no, Dengar cannot trigger Outmanoeuvre with his primary weapons, but, he could with Torpedoes.

Now, Krassis can do exactly the same thing with Torpedoes, just from a different location on the ship.  Not the weapons card, the ship.

Therefore, just like with ignoring obstacles for movement, but benefitting from them for Trick Shot, Krassis can use Outmanoeuvre with Torpedoes/Missiles/Cannon, from his rear arc.  The Requirement to fire from said arc is there, but, the ability overrides that part, but, the arc requirement is not completely ignored.

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35 minutes ago, Cassan said:

 

you are not telling me to stop anything. i agree to posts in this forum however i want.

@Arachneo just like me, tried to use the official resources we have at hand to clarify the ops question.

if you want to called that an "assumption" - so be it.

You're not tho. You're using the resources on hand plus some additions you're making up yourselves that are not written in the rules or on the cards.

That is what you should not be doing. Do what the card says. Don't do what it doesn't say.

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if i dont do what the card doesnt say, im ignoring the rules reference. is that what you want me to do?

this nonsense leads to nothing. as mentioned before i post the answer from ffg as soon as i get it.

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2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Do what the card says. Don't do what it doesn't say.

The card says "you can perform [frontal arc] attacks from your [rear arc]. 

Quote

The word “can” is used to mean “has the capacity to.” 
The ship always applies this effect as the effect is not optional but instead an
expanded capability.

Krassis has the capacity to perform especial attacks, that have a [frontal arc] requirement, from the [rear arc]. To do that, Krassis needs to change the requirement of the weapon, or it never can even to choose the defender. Although you change a rule with a card, you do not change the rules the card does not mention, so the rules reference applies.

If you try this ability with a weapon with [right arc] you cannot fire this weapon from the [rear arc]. The [frontal arc] is a requirement.

If you do not change the weapon arcs, remember that sentence in Special Weapons (RR):

Quote

Arc restrictions appear as arc icons listed to the left of the attack value.
The arc restriction requires that the defender be in that arc of the
attacker.

That does negate the card ability too.  So "you can perform special attacks from your [rear arc]" means you change the weapon arc requirement. It is the only way this rule can work.

And, when you attack from an arc that is not the [frontal arc], Outmaneuver does not trigger.

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Neither negates the card.  The card provides an EXCEPTION which can overrule the general rules provided in the Rules reference.

It's one of the GOLDEN RULES.

The Krassis Trelix Card alters the location of an attack, but doesn't change the attack type.  That's an exception to the rules.

THe Krassis Trelix Card DOES NOT tell you to change the weapon arc on the card.  You are adding something that isn't there.

Regarding your post about attack arcs, again, the Krassis Trelix Card provides an exception, but does not remove the requirement.  Meaning Outmanoeuvre triggers.

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27 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Because Dengar's Primary Weapon cannot trigger Outmanoeuvre, regardless of the fact he's pointing it out the front arc, because his WEAPON is a turret.

dengar with primary weapon doesnt trigger outmaneuver, because he can only use the [turret arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

trelix with proton torpedoes doesnt trigger outmaneuver (using his pilot ability), because he can only use the [rear arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

dengar with proton torpedoes does trigger outmaneuver, because he can use the [front arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

i dont see the contradiction.

35 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

As it says, FRONT ARC weapon, not primary, not must be located in the FRONT arc, it just says "When you perform a FRONT ARC attack" . Proton Torpedoes are a FRONT ARC attack.  Regardless of where they come from.

there is no such thing as a "front arc weapon". there are just weapons which are restricted to specific attack arcs, which the attacker can use while performing an attack.

 

36 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

A Turret weapon cannot trigger outmanoeuvre, regardless of where it fires from, ergo, Proton Torpedoes WILL trigger outmanoeuvre, regardless of where they come from, because of the weapon type.

there is no such thing as a "weapon type". proton torpedoes trigger outmaneuver because the attacker can only use the [front arc] attack arc while performing an attack with them.

 

38 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Now, if Krassis said something like:

"You may perform FRONT ARC special attacks out of your rear arc, changing those weapons to REAR ARC attacks."

You would be correct in your assumption.

if krassis text said something like this, there would be a debate about how you can change a weapon to an attack.

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8 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

The Krassis Trelix Card alters the location of an attack, but doesn't change the attack type

there is no such thing as a "location of an attack".

there is no such thing as an "attack type".

8 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

THe Krassis Trelix Card DOES NOT tell you to change the weapon arc on the card.

you dont change the attack arc restriction on the card. you just use a different attack arc while performing the attack.

Edited by Cassan

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8 minutes ago, Cassan said:

 

dengar with primary weapon doesnt trigger outmaneuver, because he can only use the [turret arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

trelix with proton torpedoes doesnt trigger outmaneuver (using his pilot ability), because he can only use the [rear arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

dengar with proton torpedoes does trigger outmaneuver, because he can use the [front arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

i dont see the contradiction.

there is no such thing as a "front arc weapon". there are just weapons which are restricted to specific attack arcs, which the attacker can use while performing an attack.

 

there is no such thing as a "weapon type". proton torpedoes trigger outmaneuver because the attacker can only use the [front arc] attack arc while performing an attack with them.

 

if krassis text said something like this, there would be a debate about how you can change a weapon to an attack.

At this point you're just being pedantic...

 

Pretty sure everyone here knows what he means when he mentions a weapon type, even you.

Edited by MrSkorm

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6 minutes ago, Cassan said:

trelix with proton torpedoes doesnt trigger outmaneuver (using his pilot ability), because he can only use the [rear arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

That Trellix can use the rear arc does not mean that he cannot use the front arc.

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I fail to understand why there is any confusion here.

When Krassis performs his front arc special attack from the rear arc I don't see anyone saying it's no longer a special attack.  So why make up rules that it's no longer a front arc attack.

There is no point referring to the rules reference or the faq as there is nothing in the rules reference or the faq that explains how this is intended to work.  All we can do is read what is on the cards and play it the way it is written.

A front arc special attack is a front arc special attack.  It doesn't matter if it's performed out of the rear or it's performed with me standing on one leg with a a sock on each ear singing a Wizard's Staff Has Got a Knob On The End.  If the card doesn't say "change it be a rear arc attack" then it's not a rear arc attack.

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19 minutes ago, Cassan said:

trelix with proton torpedoes doesnt trigger outmaneuver (using his pilot ability), because he can only use the [rear arc] attack arc while performing an attack.

Quote

That Trellix can use the rear arc does not mean that he cannot use the front arc.

i wrote "using his pilot ability". so he can only use the [rear arc] attack arc.

of course does trelix trigger outmaneuver with torpedoes, when he is not using his pilot ability and is using the [front arc] attack arc.

Edited by Cassan

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Just now, Cassan said:

no i dont. explain it to me.

Weapon Type:  Primary Fire Arc, Secondary Fire Arc, Mobile Fire Arc.

Pretty much anything that shows a symbol to represent where a weapon usually fires from.

IE: Regardless of orientation, a turret arc can never be a FORWARD firing arc.

A Rear Arc can never be a rear-facing turret arc.

Nowhere does it say change a Front Arc attack to a Rear Arc attack.  It just says use the rear arc for a Front Arc attack.  

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1 minute ago, nexttwelveexits said:

I suggest everyone stop here and wait for the official ruling because it's pretty clear that no one will be changing their minds and this discussion appears to have moved beyond being helpful.

I do agree, but, it's not quite true.

I came in to say, originally, that Outmanoeuvre wouldn't trigger... Until I read the cards and other rulings regarding firing and attack arcs etc.

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Just now, Damo1701 said:

I do agree, but, it's not quite true.

I came in to say, originally, that Outmanoeuvre wouldn't trigger... Until I read the cards and other rulings regarding firing and attack arcs etc.

I agree that first couple of pages are helpful rules discussion, but the last few pages can be charitably described as wheel-spinning.

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2 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Weapon Type:  Primary Fire Arc, Secondary Fire Arc, Mobile Fire Arc.

just as an example: what do you mean by secondary fire arc?

 

2 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

Pretty much anything that shows a symbol to represent where a weapon usually fires from.

the same symbols are used by ffg with different meaning depending on context (see definitions of arc types in the rr - arc, firing arc, attack arc).

what does "usually fires" mean?

6 minutes ago, Damo1701 said:

It just says use the rear arc for a Front Arc attack.  

what it actually says is: "you can perform [front arc] attack arc special attacks  from your [rear arc] attack arc."

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9 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

I suggest everyone stop here and wait for the official ruling because it's pretty clear that no one will be changing their minds and this discussion appears to have moved beyond being helpful.

The real hope is that we get some official rulings soon. We've got a number of 4+ page threads on this forum now where we, as a community, haven't come to a consensus about how a rule works. 

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10 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

I agree that first couple of pages are helpful rules discussion, but the last few pages can be charitably described as wheel-spinning.

true.

additionally its not helpful to invent game terms when you discuss game rules.

edit: im refering to "At this point you're just being pedantic..."

Edited by Cassan

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1 hour ago, Cassan said:

if i dont do what the card doesnt say, im ignoring the rules reference. is that what you want me to do?

this nonsense leads to nothing. as mentioned before i post the answer from ffg as soon as i get it.

...

...

...

Yes.

In exception based rules systems such as this cards routinely provide exceptions to the rules.

It's how they work at all.

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