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MrSkorm

Krassis Trelix + Outmaneuver

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Wondering if anyone is clear on the ruling of Krassis's Ability combined with Outmaneuver with something like Cluster Missles or Concussion Missles.

Outmaneuver clearly states that a front arc attack  means one less defence dice, providing you are also out of the defenders arc.

Cluster Missles or Concussion Missles are a front arc attack, so they work with Outmaneuver. But do they work with the pilot ability?

"You can perform front arc special attacks from your rear arc."

You may instantly jump to the answer no as it's a rear arc attack and Outmaneuver requires a front arc, but the way it is written doesn't strictly say that the attack is no longer a "front arc attack" it just says that you can perform a front arc special attack (Outmaneuver trigger) using your rear arc.

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FFG have already basically broken their templating by making the front arc symbol mean multiple things.  

 

Card_Pilot_153.png

Card_Upgrade_11.png

 

It looks like in this case yes, your attack is still a front arc attack, you're just doing it to the rear arc. Though as with all these arc related questions it's basically entirely random which way FFG will go on it. 

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Outmaneuver would not work from the rear arc even with Krassis.  Krassis allows you to violate the restriction that requires the missiles to be fired from the front arc. It does not turn his rear arc into a front arc somehow.

Outmaneuver requires that the attack be FROM the front arc, not that it be from a weapon that specifies front arc.  In all other cases this would be a distinction without a difference but for Krassis it's an important distinction.

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10 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

Outmaneuver would not work from the rear arc even with Krassis.  Krassis allows you to violate the restriction that requires the missiles to be fired from the front arc. It does not turn his rear arc into a front arc somehow.

Outmaneuver requires that the attack be FROM the front arc, not that it be from a weapon that specifies front arc.  In all other cases this would be a distinction without a difference but for Krassis it's an important distinction.

Performing a (Front Arc) attack is different from performing an attack in your (Front Arc) , see the Dengar/Fearless ruling for that. Outmanuver requires it's to be a (Front Arc) attack, which Krassis allow you to do from your rear arc. It's unclear just now if performing a (Front Arc) attack from your (Rear Arc) stops it being a (Front Arc) attack with how they're wording things just now.  Can't say i'd be too unhappy with either interpretation though, but I don't think it's that clear cut right now. 

 

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I don't think it's clear either.

Krassis says "You can perform [front arc] special attacks from your [rear arc]." It doesn't say, for example, "You can perform [front arc] special attacks as if they were [rear arc] special attacks instead." So, I don't think it's clear whether or not it changes the actual arc specification or just the direction used.

In other words, is the special attack still a front arc attack that measures from your rear arc instead? Just like how a turret fired out your front arc is still a turret arc attack rather than a front arc attack, and thus doesn't get the benefit of Outmaneuver.

Or, does "from your [rear arc]" mean that it's actually a rear arc attack now?

More imprecise, and therefore confusing, cards from your friends at FFG. :)

Edited by jftanner

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I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you guys. I think it's exceedingly clear and this is obvious rules lawyering. The card isn't confusing they just didn't attach a 2 paragraph statement explicitly ruling out every weasel argument someone might come up with.

"Front arc special attacks" are attacks from special weapons that require the front arc.  Krassis provides an exception and let's you use your rear arc instead. As I said before that does not mean that now the rear arc IS the front arc instead. There is no verbiage to indicate that.

If you were supposed to be able to proc things like Outmaneuver or anything else other than a special weapon then his card would just say "you may treat your rear arc as if it were your front". It doesn't, it very specifically says you can cheat the arc when firing the weapon which means that and that alone is what it works with. Do what the card says, don't do what the card doesn't say.

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I'd agree that it does work. (I wouldn't be surprised if it ever gets ruled the other way, though).

If Krassis is firing say an Ion Cannon from his rear arc, as counter-intuitive as it is, he is still preforming a [Front Arc] Attack, which is the kind of attack that Outmaneuver checks for. 

Saying that he changes a [Front Arc] Attack to a [Rear Arc] Attack is reading an extra layer of meaning that isn't there. Even if it's being fired from his rear arc, nothing has changed Ion Cannon from being a [Front Arc] Attack

I definitely agree that it feels wrong, but I don't think it is. 

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I can see where it's coming from.  Does a front-arc attack which you're able to make against a target in your rear arc remain a front-arc attack?  I think there's some merit to the argument that it remains a front-arc attack, but not enough.  I'm with @sharrrp that this feels like excessive rules lawyering and weasling.  My personal vote is that no, Krassis Trellix can't use Outmaneuver for special attacks in his rear arc.

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special attacks come from special weapons, formerly Secondary weapons. Outmaneuver is not a special weapon. it's a talent. it only works when attacking in the front arc. Krassis let's  you fire special weapons, generally front arc only, out the rear. no more, no less. His ability does not affect talent upgrades.

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You can preform front arc special attacks from your rear arc.

It does not change your rear arc into a front arc. The attack still comes from the rear arc.

No outmaneuver does not work out your rear with a special attack on Krassis.

Why on earth would anyone think her ability magically changes your rear arc into a front arc. You are preforming those attacks from your rear arc its still your rear arc.

Outmaneuver asks was this attack out the front arc? nope ok does not work. Because a front arc special weapon can be used from the rear arc does not change this.

These rules forums are getting rather crazy.

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Happy to see I'm not alone in my thinking, and I totally understand why people would be on the other side of the fence.

 

I'm not attempting to cheese rules here, I've never attempted this combo during a game.

 

I just enjoy exploring the possible combinations and see what crazy things might actually make it through.

I like to look at these things like fighting game combos, you got the standard combos that you can look up in the training menus, but they don't show you that you can pull off a super that would otherwise miss if you use a different move mid combo.

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20 minutes ago, Icelom said:

You can preform front arc special attacks from your rear arc.

It does not change your rear arc into a front arc. The attack still comes from the rear arc.

No outmaneuver does not work out your rear with a special attack on Krassis.

Why on earth would anyone think her ability magically changes your rear arc into a front arc. You are preforming those attacks from your rear arc its still your rear arc.

Outmaneuver asks was this attack out the front arc? nope ok does not work. Because a front arc special weapon can be used from the rear arc does not change this.

These rules forums are getting rather crazy.

Because the weapon in question IS a front arc attack. That's what's printed on the card. Her ability lets you fire it from the rear arc, but it doesn't say it becomes a rear arc attack. (For the same reason that firing a turret out your front arc doesn't make it a front arc attack, it's still a turret arc attack.)

That's the problem here: does "from" mean that it changes the arc of the attack itself? Or does it just let you use a different arc?

Personally, I can see reading it either way. One way it works with Outmaneuver, one way it doesn't.

 

On a side note: a bunch of y'all complain about "rules lawyers" and how we're all over-complicating "simple rules". But the goal here is to make sure we're all playing the game the same way, with consistent rules. I don't think anyone wants to be playing something wrong due to an imprecisely-worded rule, go to a tournament, and get disqualified. Right? Detailed, precise readings of the rules are the only way to actually ensure we're all on the same page. ... unfortunately, FFG sucks at writing detailed, precise rules.

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For the purposes of this post, I'm going to define the (V) symbol two different ways:  Front Arc (bolded) means an attack that features the (V) symbol as part of its legal targets.  Meanwhile, when I say front arc or rear arc (italicized) , I mean the roughly 90-degree firing arc in front (or in back) of the ship in question.

Now... let's look at the two cards in question!

Krassis Trelix allows you to perform a Front Arc attack out of his rear arc.  It doesn't change the Front Arc attack into a Rear Arc attack; instead, it lets him change the location of it.  When Krassis performs a Front Arc special attack (in his case, Cannon, Missile, or Torpedo), he can choose to perform it "from his rear arc," not "as a Rear Arc attack."  That tells me that the attack still remains a Front Arc attack.

Outmaneuver doesn't care about where the attack is coming from - only that the attack is defined as a Front Arc attack.  (It doesn't work on a Heavy Laser Cannon, for example, because HLC is a Bullseye Attack, not Front Arc.)  The fact that the attack happens to originate from within the front arc doesn't matter; only what the attack is defined as.

Combined, Krassis allows you to perform a Front Arc attack from a location other than his front arc... but he doesn't change the nature of the attack itself.  As I see it, the combo works!

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19 minutes ago, Icelom said:

No it says you can preform front arc special attacks FROM the rear arc. Its still the rear arc.

The important words aren't which arc you're using, they're 'V (special) attack'.  OM doesn't care what arc you're using, it cares what attack you're doing, and they're still V special attacks.

Why yes, I really, really wish they'd used different symbols for this.

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56 minutes ago, MrSkorm said:

Which in this case is a front arc special weapon, that is being fired from the rear, but the weapon card is still front arc.

Krassis's ability let's him/her (I don't really know) change that arc. the way Major Rhymer can change a special weapon's range requirement. The rear arc doesn't magically become the front arc.

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6 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

Krassis's ability let's him/her (I don't really know) change that arc. the way Major Rhymer can change a special weapon's range requirement. The rear arc doesn't magically become the front arc.

It doesn't though.

It doesn't say 'you may treat V arc special weapons as ^ arc weapons'.  That would turn off OM.

It says 'you can perform V arc special attacks from your ^ arc.'  Similar, but not the same.

Do what the card says.  Don't do what the card doesn't say.

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Yeah, it's weird as heck, but the card literally tells you that it's a front arc special attack from the rear arc. So you're making a front arc attack and a rear arc attack at the same time.

Bizarre. But, also, not very good, to be honest. Even with the double arc coverage you couldn't convince me to spend 6 pts giving Outmaneuver to an I3 pilot.

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4 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

So you're making a front arc attack and a rear arc attack at the same time.

Technically no. You're making a front arc attack, but using your rear arc to do it. It would not trigger any abilities which work off rear arc attacks.

(This is assuming, of course, that my interpretation of "from" is correct. Otherwise, it's the exact opposite. But I think it's correct; "from" != "as a")

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Just now, PanchoX1 said:

the card does not say it affects talent upgrade abilities. don't do what the card doesn't say.

It doesn't need to.

The card says 'do X from Y'.

The other card says 'when you do X, also do Z'.

You're doing X, so the other card triggers.

By your argument, you can never use OM on any ordnance or Cannon, because they don't specifically say they work with Elite upgrades.  Etc etc.

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If Krassis instead said 'you may replace the V in any special attack with a ^', it wouldn't work with OM.

If Krassis said 'you may treat V arc special weapons as ^ arc special weapons', it wouldn't work with OM.

There are a whole bunch of ways this could have been written to not work with OM.

But none of them are how it was written.

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technically, i thought this should work?

the question becomes: does the (front arc) attack still count as a (front arc) attack, even when being performed out of krassiss rear arc?

there is nothing written to indicate that it wouldn't. i'd still go with no, though, since the attack is obviously not being performed out of a (front arc). looking at the rules reference, this view is better established.

Capture.JPG.319dc0f45c590fe5024157e60d6f1927.JPG

i do realize this is assuming quite a bit. it hasn't been ruled that the attack changes because krassis changes its arc, but i believe that if the attack is being performed out of a (rear arc), it doesn't trigger outmaneuver since it's not being performed as a (front arc) attack, even if it was a (front arc) attack before krassiss ability let him perform it out of his (rear arc).

i thought that technically, as it's written, this should work, since it doesn't say that the attack is no longer a (front arc) attack, just that krassis may perform it out of his (rear arc). but after having had a look at the section on arcs from the rules reference, i don't think outmaneuver can trigger out of any other arc than the (front arc), even if you're performing an attack that is normally (front arc).

there is insufficient information on his card to be 100% sure of how this should be ruled. after reading the card, i thought it should work for sure. looking at the rules reference, i don't think it should work. at a tournament, i would call a judge. at the club, i would let outmaneuver be used, but not before some discussion.

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