bisento

[Hida Jitenno 586]

Also a question for curiousity... What's the difference between a nagimata and a bisento?

[AtoMaki 1,431]

2 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Also a question for curiousity... What's the difference between a nagimata and a bisento?

The naginata has a fairly standard katana-like sword blade. The bisento has a heavy scimitar-like blade.

Yes, the difference is essentially the same as the katana vs scimitar.

[Avatar111 553]

25 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Also a question for curiousity... What's the difference between a nagimata and a bisento?

bisento is like a naginata, except its a huge scimitar blade at the tip instead of a slightly curved thin katana blade. hence why its useable with one hand and not the naginata (lol).

a nagamaki, is a katana with a long handle (roughly same lenght as the blade itself for a 50/50 proportion). this is more a weapon that should have the `1h(cumbersome katana with regular range) 2h(cumbersome katana with added reach and dmg and/or dls) property.

 

basically, a bisento should be same stats as a naginata, but replace razor-edged by durable. or, add both durable and razor-edged (like the scimitar) but then lower its deadliness by 1 (for a 6/5 weapon). i'm gonna go with something around those lines.

nagamaki i would do:

4/5 reach1 cumbersome, razor edged. and when wielded with 2 hands reach2 dmg+1 deadliness+1 (for a 5/6). basically a versatile katana[but cumbersome]/naginata[1 less dmg and no wargear tag] thats a bit worst than each of those but can do both.

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Avatar111

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

7 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Or, they confused a bisento with a nagamaki.

I doubt this.

The bisento is about 7-8 shaku. The Nagamaki is about 5-6 shaku. 

The bisento is functionally a heavy glaive; the nakamaki is a long-handled katana, and thus is essentially equivalent to the western Zweihander (the first 3rd of the blade was actually a fore-grip on many of them.) They wield differently. The Naginata varies - two forms exist in parallel - a wakizashi on a stick, and a wider, slightly swept blade  with a rounded profile on the cutting edge, both about 7-8 shaku.  The game isn't clear on which, but the differences aren't within resolution anyway...

I do agree with others that the Yari and Naginata should be able to be used 1-handed at range 1 by gripping closer to the head. I'd say, +1 TN (the attacks telegraph badly and are much constrained by the haft and your body interacting), -2 damage (lack of mass behind them).

The Nagamaki  being a katana on a stick...
I'd suggest Damage 4, Deadliness 5, range 1-2. 1H: range 1. 2H:deadliness +2. Wargear, Razor Edged. 60 koku, rarity 8.
The extra mass of the handle is made up for by the less efficient mobility of the blade, and the extended reach makes it worthwhile.
Plus, if one wants to be a show-off, the nagamaki can be worn through the obi... it's almost plausible to perform iaijutsu with it... almost.

[Avatar111 553]

11 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

I doubt this.

The bisento is about 7-8 shaku. The Nagamaki is about 5-6 shaku. 

The bisento is functionally a heavy glaive; the nakamaki is a long-handled katana, and thus is essentially equivalent to the western Zweihander (the first 3rd of the blade was actually a fore-grip on many of them.) They wield differently. The Naginata varies - two forms exist in parallel - a wakizashi on a stick, and a wider, slightly swept blade  with a rounded profile on the cutting edge, both about 7-8 shaku.  The game isn't clear on which, but the differences aren't within resolution anyway...

I do agree with others that the Yari and Naginata should be able to be used 1-handed at range 1 by gripping closer to the head. I'd say, +1 TN (the attacks telegraph badly and are much constrained by the haft and your body interacting), -2 damage (lack of mass behind them).

The Nagamaki  being a katana on a stick...
I'd suggest Damage 4, Deadliness 5, range 1-2. 1H: range 1. 2H:deadliness +2. Wargear, Razor Edged. 60 koku, rarity 8.
The extra mass of the handle is made up for by the less efficient mobility of the blade, and the extended reach makes it worthwhile.
Plus, if one wants to be a show-off, the nagamaki can be worn through the obi... it's almost plausible to perform iaijutsu with it... almost.

your nagamaki is just a better katana. thats a no go. bad design.

but you're right, the nagamaki is shorter than bisento/yari/naginata.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Avatar111

[AtoMaki 1,431]

Well, if it comes to rules, I have these (ripped from my homebrew so some stats might be off):

Wakizashi: Sword, Samurai, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 5, Deadliness 6, 1 Handed: -,  Void Opportunity:  +1 Damage or +1 Deadliness for the attack.

Katana: Sword, Samurai, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 6, Deadliness 6, 1 Handed: -, 2 Handed: +2 Deadliness, Void Opportunity: Ignore 2 points of Resistance on the target.

Nagamaki: Polearm, Sword, Wargear, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 7, Deadliness 5, 1 Handed: -, 2 Handed: +1 Damage, It is a Polearm AND a Sword so you can go crazy with special abilities that refer to either. 

No-Dachi: Sword, Wargear, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 8, Deadliness 5, 2 Handed: -,  2 Fire or Water Opportunity: Dismount a mounted target. 

Naginata: Polearm, Samurai, Range: Short (1-2), Damage 7, Deadliness 6, 2 Handed: -, Void Opportunity: Spend this during the Assessment Roll, increase your Initiative Score by 2.

Bisento: Polearm, Monk, Wargear, Range: Short (1-2), Damage 8, Deadliness 5, 2 Handed: -,  You add half the Ring value you used for the attack to your Damage. 

 

[ExplodingJoe 131]

well. This convo had me very curious, so now that I'm home from work I decided to watch some trained artists using Bisento. I can confidently say that the treatment in the book does make a bit more sense to me now. The one handed Bisento techniques I watched use the shoulders, arms and back to brace the blunt (or pointed) end, while the one hand guides the blade in a wide arch driven by inertia. These techniques were used to keep a great distance while dodging to the side of swordsmen who had over committed to a charge.

The game characterizes these as such - one-handed a bisento is +1 range. So 4 damage, range 3. Two-handed, the bisento is damage 6, range 2, making it identical to the naginata. The mechanical elements of naginata vs bisento being that a bisento can sacrifice damage for range, and possesses the durable quality instead of razor-edge.

While the techniques I witnessed were more akin to situational maneuvers, and not an ideal permanent fighting stance, I feel comfortable that the game does have good reason for presenting the weapon this way. When considering how polearms are often used in Wuxia inspired works, it fits more. Personal opinion obviously applies here.

[Avatar111 553]

I dont see how the technique is that different from a naginata. Though, even if you go more wuxia "guan dao" style I still dont think it can be used with one hand. Sure, you might create momentum with 2 hands and then swing with just one hand, but one hand from the get go? Not sure.

I mean, with one hand i'd rather have a yari or naginata, at least i can poke/pierce with it.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Avatar111

[ExplodingJoe 131]

Most displays of kata that I can find do not differentiate between naginata and bisento, they list the techniques as applying to both. Realistically, the only difference should be that razor-edge is replaced with durable.

[Avatar111 553]

Yeah, i'll just remove the 1hand option from it. Simple solution.

6/6 is already plenty good and put the tetsubo to shame as is.

[shosuko 2,174]

Funny - I have the opposite opinion.  I think the game is turning out great, and even the things I was thinking of homebrewing are going RAW just fine.

A polearm in a 1 handed grip is not optimal - this is represented by losing 2 damage and 1 range when using the 1 handed grip.  This makes sense for me.  When you hold the weapon closer to the balance point the weight is much less of an issue, and you can use your body and momentum to make it work.  I think the weapon is given the cumbersome quality to represent the weight you are dealing with.  You need weight to control the weapon.  If the naginata and yari tips are lighter that might be why they lack the option.  You could always opt to give a naginata the cumbersome quality, and add the 1 handed grip if your player insisted on using a naginata rather than the Bisento.

I think its common for weapons to be very similar in reality, while in fiction they need key differentiators.  If every pole arm were the same, why bother having more than 1?  Meanwhile you are trying to present choice to your players...

Edited October 17, 2018 by shosuko

[WHW 1,817]

To be honest, weapon table is probably my only disappointment so far. There is just so much filler weapons that seem only to exist in order to provide non-player characters with weapons that have worse stats than elite equipment of samurai, leading to a situation where samurai are only choosing between "do I like swords/polearms/blunt/ranged weapons" and then picking queen weapons of their category. 
 

[Avatar111 553]

6 hours ago, shosuko said:

Funny - I have the opposite opinion.  I think the game is turning out great, and even the things I was thinking of homebrewing are going RAW just fine.

A polearm in a 1 handed grip is not optimal - this is represented by losing 2 damage and 1 range when using the 1 handed grip.  This makes sense for me.  When you hold the weapon closer to the balance point the weight is much less of an issue, and you can use your body and momentum to make it work.  I think the weapon is given the cumbersome quality to represent the weight you are dealing with.  You need weight to control the weapon.  If the naginata and yari tips are lighter that might be why they lack the option.  You could always opt to give a naginata the cumbersome quality, and add the 1 handed grip if your player insisted on using a naginata rather than the Bisento.

I think its common for weapons to be very similar in reality, while in fiction they need key differentiators.  If every pole arm were the same, why bother having more than 1?  Meanwhile you are trying to present choice to your players...

Except naginata already have the cumbersome quality.

Also, explain to me why the Zanbato is worst than an Ono. And its worth 40koku.

I could go on and on, the weapon table is very badly done/balanced.

[shosuko 2,174]

8 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Except naginata already have the cumbersome quality.

Also, explain to me why the Zanbato is worst than an Ono. And its worth 40koku.

I could go on and on, the weapon table is very badly done/balanced.

Naginata includes razor edged quality.

Sadly the main draw of the zanbato is it's rarity. It's exotic and impractical. It should cost a lot because it takes a lot of metal to forge one. If someone is using it, make sure people know it's a rare thing.

Balance doesn't mean everything is equal, but rather nothing is pointless. I'm not saying the weapon list is perfect but I don't see anything worthless. There is a reason to use most everything. Sometimes it's got stats, usually it's for special effects, sometimes it's flavor.

[Ultimatecalibur 597]

9 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

Also, explain to me why the Zanbato is worst than an Ono. And its worth 40koku.

It is future proofing for coming techniques and for games that want to use sub-skills.

The Zanbato qualifies for sword techniques while we are unlikely to see Axe techniques for the Ono.

9 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

I could go on and on, the weapon table is very badly done/balanced. 

No, the weapon table is very solidly done and balanced if you are not approaching the table from a perspective of all weapons being equal.

[Avatar111 553]

21 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

It is future proofing for coming techniques and for games that want to use sub-skills.

The Zanbato qualifies for sword techniques while we are unlikely to see Axe techniques for the Ono.

No, the weapon table is very solidly done and balanced if you are not approaching the table from a perspective of all weapons being equal.

future proofing for coming technique? unless you are a dev...

i'll take a nodachi instead of zanbato.

oh, are they going to add techniques for cumbersome swords ? or wargear swords ? MAYBE.

its just bad design. lets leave it at that. same as their general kata techniques being all confused in the wording (some are written martial/unarmed,ranged,melee and some are just written martial) because they changed it last minute and didnt care to make sure some of the techniques fit with range weapon. like the one that disarm and push the weapon 3 range band. but then if i use a range 5 bow i can do this and use the one opportunity to get the disarmed weapon instead. well played.

we have to be real here. the product they've given is like a second beta. this is by no mean a well polished product.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

On 10/16/2018 at 1:07 PM, AtoMaki said:

Well, if it comes to rules, I have these (ripped from my homebrew so some stats might be off):

Wakizashi: Sword, Samurai, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 5, Deadliness 6, 1 Handed: -,  Void Opportunity:  +1 Damage or +1 Deadliness for the attack.

Katana: Sword, Samurai, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 6, Deadliness 6, 1 Handed: -, 2 Handed: +2 Deadliness, Void Opportunity: Ignore 2 points of Resistance on the target.

Nagamaki: Polearm, Sword, Wargear, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 7, Deadliness 5, 1 Handed: -, 2 Handed: +1 Damage, It is a Polearm AND a Sword so you can go crazy with special abilities that refer to either. 

No-Dachi: Sword, Wargear, Range: Close (0-1), Damage 8, Deadliness 5, 2 Handed: -,  2 Fire or Water Opportunity: Dismount a mounted target. 

Naginata: Polearm, Samurai, Range: Short (1-2), Damage 7, Deadliness 6, 2 Handed: -, Void Opportunity: Spend this during the Assessment Roll, increase your Initiative Score by 2.

Bisento: Polearm, Monk, Wargear, Range: Short (1-2), Damage 8, Deadliness 5, 2 Handed: -,  You add half the Ring value you used for the attack to your Damage. 

 

The nagamaki has issues at very close range - the extended grip makes it very hard to wield effectively in close. Overall, it's simply moving the tsuba up a shaku to one-and-a-half shaku from where it is on a nodachi or odachi (depending upon overall length.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

23 hours ago, ExplodingJoe said:

The game characterizes these as such - one-handed a bisento is +1 range. So 4 damage, range 3. Two-handed, the bisento is damage 6, range 2, making it identical to the naginata. The mechanical elements of naginata vs bisento being that a bisento can sacrifice damage for range, and possesses the durable quality instead of razor-edge.

Wrong - the bisento is "1–hand: Range 1", not "1–hand: Range +1." As in, "Range = 1"

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by AK_Aramis

[Ultimatecalibur 597]

41 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

i'll take a nodachi instead of zanbato.

I guess you won't be fighting Oni. Your superfiscial ability to read things does not mean that things are unbalanced or beta level.

43 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

its just bad design. lets leave it at that. same as their general kata techniques being all confused in the wording (some are written martial/unarmed,ranged,melee and some are just written martial) because they changed it last minute and didnt care to make sure some of the techniques fit with range weapon. like the one that disarm and push the weapon 3 range band. but then if i use a range 5 bow i can do this and use the one opportunity to get the disarmed weapon instead. well played.

The way those techniques are written is intentional. The ones written "Martial Arts [Melee, Ranged, or Unarmed]" are new opportunity expenditures on actions using those skills while those written "TN X Martial Arts [Melee/Ranged/Unarmed]" are new actions.

Crimson Leaves Strike is intended to be cinematic and that Earth * expenditure is also easy for  the GM to ixnay.

[Avatar111 553]

how a zanbato is better vs oni than a nodachi ?

but yeah, so far its been beta level.

[WHW 1,817]

I kinda hoped that the less-stat blessed weapons, like Jian and Zanbato, would have perks in their descriptions, just like the Mantis equipment stuff does. Something that maybe doesn't "equalize" them, but at least gives them something interesting and special. I wouldn't mind a Jian that adds a single rolled Strife+Opportunity Ring dice for Unarmed attacks done in tandem with Jian, for example. Scimitar also looks like a big loser. 

[Avatar111 553]

19 minutes ago, WHW said:

I kinda hoped that the less-stat blessed weapons, like Jian and Zanbato, would have perks in their descriptions, just like the Mantis equipment stuff does. Something that maybe doesn't "equalize" them, but at least gives them something interesting and special. I wouldn't mind a Jian that adds a single rolled Strife+Opportunity Ring dice for Unarmed attacks done in tandem with Jian, for example. Scimitar also looks like a big loser. 

im decently ok with "little bit loser" in term of narrative. like the scimitar. sure, its not as good as the katana, but thats ok. scimitar should not be common in Rokugan. But a few weapons are really just "wrong". Bisento being too OP, and Zanbato being way too weak. especially.

here are my tweaks so far;

change rushing avalanche technique to work with cumbersome weapon (instead of blunt weapon).

Zanbato: add ceremonial and razor-edged qualities. still a weaker weapon than nodachi, but can be ok if you have rushing avalanche since its a cumbersome weapon, and its got the wargear quality still as a little bonus.

Bisento: remove the 1h option, put the price at 10koku (same as naginata). basically durable instead of razoredged.

Ji: add 1 deadliness (otherwise i feel the trident is strictly better).

Yari: add 1 deadliness. general balancing imo.

Daikyu: add the cumbersome quality (otherwise i feel its just better than the yumi for no drawbacks despite being larger). improve its range to 2-5.

 

sure some weapon like the Ono, Scimitar, Jian, Bisanto and such are "slightly" weaker than the samurai weapon, but I feel this is warranted in the setting, you dont want all the players running around with exotic weapons. and its not like they are totally useless anyway.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Avatar111