More feudal questions

[gandalf9700 41]

So you have your Clan Daimyo, then Family Daimyo, what follows below it.  Are their regional daiymo's, city daiymo's etc.  Any detail would be appreciated.

[sndwurks 1,257]

8 minutes ago, gandalf9700 said:

So you have your Clan Daimyo, then Family Daimyo, what follows below it.  Are their regional daiymo's, city daiymo's etc.  Any detail would be appreciated.

It is a little muddled after Family Daimyo, honestly. Theoretically, a Governor of a Province might outrank the Governor of a City, but if that City is of greater importance than the Province, then they would have the status advantage.

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

5 hours ago, sndwurks said:

It is a little muddled after Family Daimyo, honestly. Theoretically, a Governor of a Province might outrank the Governor of a City, but if that City is of greater importance than the Province, then they would have the status advantage.

Agreed.

Essentially, below the Family Daimyo there are "the family's domains" which a family would broadly split up however the heck they wish to - and for that matter might be split up for them depending on how they acquired them.

• The family's original territory is probably more or less contiguous and is probably split down regional lines
• As noted, individual cities might be sufficiently significant to 'outrank' the province they're in or even be considered a province on their own (like Greater London in the UK is technically it's own County).
• Equally, if a territory was acquired by conquest, it might not fit into a neat 'regional' division of territories, and  - since it's presumably sat on a hostile border - rulership is as much a military command as a civilian governorship.
• Finally, territories granted by marriage, imperial gift, or other such diplomacy might not be contiguous with the rest of the family's territory.

 

The 'status score' suggestions implies (although as noted the specific post might elevate or reduce a level or two - a clan family's Karo  will be a lot more significant than a vassal family's, and the Shireikan commanding a watchtower in the buttock end of nowhere is a lot less important than the garrison commander of Kyuden [Clan's Ruling Family] ):

• Clan Champion
  • Clan Family Daimyo (obviously one of them is usually the Clan Champion)
    • Provincial Governor, Daimyos' Hatamoto, Clan Army General - if not a Daimyo in their own right)
      • Vassal Family Daimyo, City Governor, Clan Army Commander)
        • Samurai appointed as Magistrates to a given territory or Ministers to a given Daimyo, Samurai managing smaller townships or groups of villages, Subordinate unit commanders
          • Other Samurai entitled to a great clan family name
            • Other Samurai recognised as clan members but not entitled to a to a great clan family name
              • Everyone else

 

Based on older L5R background, the armies (the name of the unit and the name of the rank of the unit commander are the same):

• Rikugunshokan - Senior General, appointed by the Clan Champion (usually only one exists). The number of troops assigned to the post depend on the size of the clan and the size of the war, but 2-3 subordinate Shireikan is 'normal'.
  • Shireikan - General. Commands 25,000 troops in 5 formations
    • Taisa  - Army Commander - Commands about 5,000 troops (about the same as a Roman Legion) in one of the Shireikan's sub-formations - Tends to be a political appointee
      • Chui - Lieutenant/Captain - Commands one of the Taisa's units, whose size will vary depending on what it is (a formation of permanent ashigaru infantry will have far more soldiers than a 'pure samurai' heavy cavalry detachment) -  commands 4 to 20 Gunso, so could have a command of anything from 100 soldiers to a command close to a Taisa's, but an average of one to two thousand - usually  'Promoted from the ranks'
        • Gunso - Platoon Sergeant - 5 to 40 squads depending on type, meaning up to 400 solders as a maximum.
          • Nikutai - Corporal - 5 to 10 Soldiers
            • Hohei - generic line soldier.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Magnus Grendel

[Azrael40 3]

Additionnaly, within a province that belongs to a clan, You Can have a town managed by imperial magistrates and ponctually  governed by another clan... See the City of the lies

[Suzume Chikahisa 313]

On 10/15/2018 at 3:45 AM, gandalf9700 said:

So you have your Clan Daimyo, then Family Daimyo, what follows below it.  Are their regional daiymo's, city daiymo's etc.  Any detail would be appreciated.

This as never been fully detailed, so what follows is how I view it, which is predicated in two caveats:

1. Feudalism is largely a post medieval fantasy used to justify government centralization under Absolute Monarchies.
2. Daimyo was a loose generic term, initially used to the refer to particularly powerful Shugo (Military Governors nominated by the Kamakura or Muromachi shogunates) or those that overthrew them. Only in the Edo period did it have a specific meaning which was that of direct Shogunal retainers with domains worth over 10000 koku.

Under the definition above you can't really have a Daimyo sworn to another Daimyo and historically that's the case at any period you want to look at. Using a looser definition with Daimyo meaning a Clan or Family line leader the it's just a matter of deciding how deep you want that definition to go. I wouldn't, personally, use it on characters that did not own significant amounts of land in heredity.

Another thing you should consider is wether there is a well defined, and working, administrative division of the land or not. Japan imported Tang style bureaucracy and (tried to) established well defined admistrative divisions based on geographical divisions, but the ability to enforce that was always somewhat limited and from the Azuchi-Momoyama period onwards Han domains were pretty much decoupled from it. If your Rokugan has well defined administrative divisions governors make alot of sense, more so if the Emperor is also capable of enforcing his will. In fact you should consider how and why a feudal structure is surviving if there is a functioning and powerful Imperial Bureaucracy.

On the other hand if the Emperor is weak you should consider why he can nominate a governor to a specific place at instead of some daimyo just taking over the place.

As an example of an administrative organization you could use, my own take is loosely based on Japanese Ritsuryo divisions and assuming relatively weak, but not yet powerless, Emperors and mostly urban samurai:

Circuit or Dō: As far as I could tell this division was merely bureaucratic having no government postions associated with it, however I found it useful to circumscribe the territories of the Great Clans, ie Crab Clan lands are a Circuit, Crane Lands another, etc... These would be assigned to the Clan Champions.

Provinces or Kuni: These were the traditional provinces of Japan, initially ruled by the several Kokushi ranks later by the Shugo until they largely become obsolete. In my Rokugan these correspond to the main family lands. So there is Ikoma kuni, Utaku kuni, and yes there is a Kuni kuni. That's why I usually refer to them as provinces and not kuni. It's important to note that, in my Rokugan, these are not the provinces that appear either in the Secrets of... books or in the Atlas of Rokugan. Those provinces are the next level down.

District or Kōri (also Gun): Since I felt Rokugani "provinces" as they were depicted on the books were too small and sparse I demoted them to districts. In Japan. during the Muromachi and Kamakura periods they were largely ruled by the gokenin. Later they become obsolete. During the Heian period they were overseen by Gun-ji. In my Rokugan this would be the highest level held by the heads of vassal families, but some might be assigned to appointed governors.

City/Town or Machi: The lowest level to be overseen by a samurai would also include large portion of the surrounding hinterland and villages. Some might be held in heredity but most would held by appointment. Appropriate titles would be Daikan and Machi-bugyō, maybe Jito, Goshi or Kokujin as well. I would also put individual fortresses and major temples at this level. Fortress commanders could be called Jodai or Jodai-Karo, for a temple I would just go with Abott or Juji.

Villages and Wards: I'm just including these for completenesse sake, these would villages and also city quarters or neighborhoods  overseen by a commoner shoya or headman.

This covers all useful administrative divisions.

[gandalf9700 41]

Thank you Suzume, this was awesome information and exactly what I was looking for.  If you have any campaign documents you used in the past I would love to look them over.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

Based upon the historical model.... but adding clan daimyō

non-martial chain
Emperor
Clan Daimyō aka Clan Champion
Family Daimyō
Provincial Daimyō or Major City governor (major cities were provinces unto themselves. Tokyo still is)
One of: minor daimiō (just enough kokudaka to qualify for the title instead of gokenin); gokenin (estate manager); ward governor; minor city or large town governor
At some times, a district governor or lesser gokenin.
Individual samurai.

Martial chain - clan army - a little more interpreted, based upon 2.5 and 3E L5R sources as well as some historical bits.
Emperor
Clan Daimyō (historically family, not clan, but the historical distinction isn't as cut and drid as L5R)
Clan's Karo
sometimes officers of the clan and, in parallel, the family daimyōs
senior Rikugunshogun (Generals) (high command)
junior Rikugunshogun - Field Army/go-hatamoto
Shireikan command the Shidan (regiment)
Taisa command the Daibutei (legion)
Chui command the kaisha (company)
Gunso command the Guntai ("platoon" -  20 man)
Nikutai command the squads (5-8 man squads)
Hohei command nothing...

Martial chain, Provincial standing forces (when not detached into the clan forces)
Emperor
Clan Daimyō
Clan Hatamoto & Family Daimyo in parallel
provincial daimyō 
provincial karo
provincial warmaster (if one appointed) 
Shureikan (if any, likely only one)
and from there, identical to the clan.

Monastic chain
Emperor
head of order
head of temple
monk

Note that 2.5 Ed (hybrid d20/2E) made clear that there were Provincial and City governors, as well as vassal family daimyō and gokenin, in that order of descending status. («Way of the Daimyo» [sic], p 6); it's a safe bet that vassal families have only gokenin as their vassals. 
For the Ji Samurai...

Emperor
Clan Daimyō
Clan Hatamoto & Family Daimyo in parallel
Provincial Daimyō
Vassal Family Daimyō
Gokenin
individual samurai.